If you wanted to bring down frame sizes a bit, do you think he'd be a good choice?
http://www.lazyglowline.com/herd/herd_i ... _large.jpg
http://www.lazyglowline.com/herd/herd_i ... _large.jpg
What do you think of this bull...
- Thread starter ArmyDoc
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
The catch with breeding animals of extremes is that you don;t gnerally get an average. Some offspring will be closer to one parent or the other. If you breed a FS 2 to a FS 8 you won;t get a FS 5. More then likely you'll get a FS 2.5 and 7.5 or 3s and 7s. After a couple of generations you;ld get those smaller FS but every once ina while you'ld still get the giants. If one wanted to breed lowlines for a niche market it would be much better and more reliable to start with lowlines. Keeping in mind that you're then going to be pretty much married to that niche market regardless if it worked out or not.
East Caney
Well-known member
The simple answer is "yes".
Now for some unsolicited comments...I think it's better to select for frame over generations (plural) not a generation (singular). Moderate framed animals are good. At the same time, I don't want them too short. Anything can be overselected either way. It's not often that you're going to fix something in one generation and get consistent future results. You may as well just select for the frame size you want, and select a bull with that frame size the next three times you buy a bull. But, if you want your cattle to have the same frame as that bull, use one like him 3 times over. He doesn't seem to be lacking anything but frame...certainly not lacking condition.
Now for some unsolicited comments...I think it's better to select for frame over generations (plural) not a generation (singular). Moderate framed animals are good. At the same time, I don't want them too short. Anything can be overselected either way. It's not often that you're going to fix something in one generation and get consistent future results. You may as well just select for the frame size you want, and select a bull with that frame size the next three times you buy a bull. But, if you want your cattle to have the same frame as that bull, use one like him 3 times over. He doesn't seem to be lacking anything but frame...certainly not lacking condition.
manaftergodsheart413
Well-known member
He's a good lucking bull but I'd like to see more length and width to his rump muscles is all but dont get me wrong they'll certainly d
h and about the frame score which I dont know to much about but he may be to short for my liking and I like moderate cattle.
h and about the frame score which I dont know to much about but he may be to short for my liking and I like moderate cattle.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
ArmyDoc-
East Caney and dun are correct. It also depends on what you consider "bringing down frame sizes a bit." The actual measurements relating to relative Frame Score size is somewhat insignificant when considering the other genetic markings for Growth, Maternal, and Accuracies. Sometimes we get so concerned with the seeming importance of one trait that we lose sight of the relative importance of multi-trait selection processes. It becomes a - - "can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees - - scenario and before you know it - a genetic characteristic of more critical import - YW, or RE, or perhaps one or more 'functional' traits (bone, legs, shoulder, spine or mammary structure) has slipped past our scrutiny and then we are put in a position of repairing our genetic BASE charactistics. "Moderation in All Things" is a good adage to adhere to in our breeding plans. Try to avoid 'single trait' selection'.
DOC HARRIS
East Caney and dun are correct. It also depends on what you consider "bringing down frame sizes a bit." The actual measurements relating to relative Frame Score size is somewhat insignificant when considering the other genetic markings for Growth, Maternal, and Accuracies. Sometimes we get so concerned with the seeming importance of one trait that we lose sight of the relative importance of multi-trait selection processes. It becomes a - - "can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees - - scenario and before you know it - a genetic characteristic of more critical import - YW, or RE, or perhaps one or more 'functional' traits (bone, legs, shoulder, spine or mammary structure) has slipped past our scrutiny and then we are put in a position of repairing our genetic BASE charactistics. "Moderation in All Things" is a good adage to adhere to in our breeding plans. Try to avoid 'single trait' selection'.
DOC HARRIS
Dun is right. Using a bull that is "too small" on cows that are "too big" in hopes of getting heifers that are "just right" only increases genetic diversity into the herd to the point that predicting what the calves will do becomes very difficult.
http://www.lazyglowline.com/herd/pedigree.php?id=41
I've looked at this bull for a couple of small backyard cows (lowline crosses). I like the red color in a lowline, but since that's rare, they can charge $100 per straw.
Did you read that he's only 44 inches tall at the hip? How big are your cows?
I've looked at this bull for a couple of small backyard cows (lowline crosses). I like the red color in a lowline, but since that's rare, they can charge $100 per straw.
Did you read that he's only 44 inches tall at the hip? How big are your cows?
Thanks for all your replies.
I don't have any cattle right now. I'm still trying to decide what I want to buy. I'm planning on buying between 25 and 50 acres in the next year or two. I want to raise grass fed cattle on a semi-organic basis (i.e. as naturally as possible, avoiding pesticides, no use of steroids, no routine use of antibiotics. But I'm not going to withold antibiotics from an infected animal just so I can say its organic - that's crazy).
I want to start out with beef just for my own use and and extended family, but eventually as I learn, I'd like to expand my program atleast to the point where it supports itself, and eventually perhaps into a small comercial operation.
I have been reading about feed efficiency for cattle, and some have suggested that a smaller frame animal is more efficient at converting grass to beef, allowing a higher stocking rate etc. I'm not sure I fully accept the idea to the extent of miniature cattle, but I thought maybe frame size 0 or 1 would make sense for me. But most cattle I've seen are frame 3 and 4 or larger.
So, my thought was maybe I could start with some size 3 or 4 cows, and use a smaller bull. I understand the concept of single trait sellection being a problem. I was thinking that if I had structurally sound cattle, and went with a structurally sound bull that was smaller, I would maintain all of the sound aspects and be able to decrease the frame size. From your comments, it sounds like I may be better off trying harder to find find smaller cattle. And just retain the smaller calfs that still are solid structurally and performance wise.
But how hard is it to do find smaller cattle? I was leaning towards an Angus / senepol cross because of heat tollerance. But I guess the real question is, what size is the right size for my area (Augusta Georgia)? Will a frame size 3-4 Angus / Senepol cross do well on grass only?
I don't have any cattle right now. I'm still trying to decide what I want to buy. I'm planning on buying between 25 and 50 acres in the next year or two. I want to raise grass fed cattle on a semi-organic basis (i.e. as naturally as possible, avoiding pesticides, no use of steroids, no routine use of antibiotics. But I'm not going to withold antibiotics from an infected animal just so I can say its organic - that's crazy).
I want to start out with beef just for my own use and and extended family, but eventually as I learn, I'd like to expand my program atleast to the point where it supports itself, and eventually perhaps into a small comercial operation.
I have been reading about feed efficiency for cattle, and some have suggested that a smaller frame animal is more efficient at converting grass to beef, allowing a higher stocking rate etc. I'm not sure I fully accept the idea to the extent of miniature cattle, but I thought maybe frame size 0 or 1 would make sense for me. But most cattle I've seen are frame 3 and 4 or larger.
So, my thought was maybe I could start with some size 3 or 4 cows, and use a smaller bull. I understand the concept of single trait sellection being a problem. I was thinking that if I had structurally sound cattle, and went with a structurally sound bull that was smaller, I would maintain all of the sound aspects and be able to decrease the frame size. From your comments, it sounds like I may be better off trying harder to find find smaller cattle. And just retain the smaller calfs that still are solid structurally and performance wise.
But how hard is it to do find smaller cattle? I was leaning towards an Angus / senepol cross because of heat tollerance. But I guess the real question is, what size is the right size for my area (Augusta Georgia)? Will a frame size 3-4 Angus / Senepol cross do well on grass only?
I have been reading about feed efficiency for cattle, and some have suggested that a smaller frame animal is more efficient at converting grass to beef, allowing a higher stocking rate etc. I'm not sure I fully accept the idea to the extent of miniature cattle, but I thought maybe frame size 0 or 1 would make sense for me. But most cattle I've seen are frame 3 and 4 or larger.
Being able to finish on grass in a relatively short period of time requires a certain type of animal. Not neccesarily a certain size animal (avoiding extremes)
From my experience as soon as you go smaller than a frame 3.5 or 4 you lose growthability and often lose proportion and balance to the animal. Without balance grass finishing is impossible.
If you can find frame 3 or 4 cattle, I would start with that and use a frame 3 or 4 bull, sooner or later you will get a taller calf and also a smaller framed calf. then you will see for yourself that the frame 1 will fare no better than the frame 4. If your phenotype is correct its very possible to finish a frame 6 animal on grass only by the time they are 18 -20 months old. The frame 3 will finish more or less the same time and the frame 1 also very similar. The essence is still in the right phenotype.
Ideally I would say use frame 4 cows and breed to a frame 5 bull. You just need to completely forget the weights that are usually associated with frame scores. You need an animal that is heavy for their size, for lack of a better description.
Being able to finish on grass in a relatively short period of time requires a certain type of animal. Not neccesarily a certain size animal (avoiding extremes)
From my experience as soon as you go smaller than a frame 3.5 or 4 you lose growthability and often lose proportion and balance to the animal. Without balance grass finishing is impossible.
If you can find frame 3 or 4 cattle, I would start with that and use a frame 3 or 4 bull, sooner or later you will get a taller calf and also a smaller framed calf. then you will see for yourself that the frame 1 will fare no better than the frame 4. If your phenotype is correct its very possible to finish a frame 6 animal on grass only by the time they are 18 -20 months old. The frame 3 will finish more or less the same time and the frame 1 also very similar. The essence is still in the right phenotype.
Ideally I would say use frame 4 cows and breed to a frame 5 bull. You just need to completely forget the weights that are usually associated with frame scores. You need an animal that is heavy for their size, for lack of a better description.
