We shall see...

Lammie

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Knowing as I do how quickly this will get locked, I still find it an interesting article and wanted to share. I was wonder about his position on this. For the record, I don't know where money to do this would come from, how you are going to determine whose anscestors were slaves, and how much money is supposed to be enough to satisfy this particular demographic.





SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama opposes offering reparations to the descendants of slaves, putting him at odds with some black groups and leaders.

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The man with a serious chance to become the nation's first black president argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all.

"I have said in the past — and I'll repeat again — that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed," the Illinois Democrat said recently.

Some two dozen members of Congress are co-sponsors of legislation to create a commission that would study reparations — that is, payments and programs to make up for the damage done by slavery.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People supports the legislation, too. Cities around the country, including Obama's home of Chicago, have endorsed the idea, and so has a major union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

Obama has worked to be seen as someone who will bring people together, not divide them into various interest groups with checklists of demands. Supporting reparations could undermine that image and make him appear to be pandering to black voters.

"Let's not be naive. Sen. Obama is running for president of the United States, and so he is in a constant battle to save his political life," said Kibibi Tyehimba, co-chair of the National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America. "In light of the demographics of this country, I don't think it's realistic to expect him to do anything other than what he's done."

But this is not a position Obama adopted just for the presidential campaign. He voiced the same concerns about reparations during his successful run for the Senate in 2004.

There's enough flexibility in the term "reparations" that Obama can oppose them and still have plenty of common ground with supporters.

The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races. Efforts to improve schools in the inner city could also aid students in the mountains of West Virginia, said Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington bureau.

"The solution could be broad and sweeping," Shelton said.

The National Urban League — a group Obama is to address Saturday — avoids the word "reparations" as too vague and highly charged. But the group advocates government action to close the gaps between white America and black America.

Urban League President Marc Morial said he expects his members to press Obama on how he intends to close those gaps and what action he would take in the first 100 days of his presidency.

"What steps should we take as a nation to alleviate the effects of racial exclusion and racial discrimination?" Morial asked.

The House voted this week to apologize for slavery. The resolution, which was approved on a voice vote, does not mention reparations, but past opponents have argued that an apology would increase pressure for concrete action.

Obama says an apology would be appropriate but not particularly helpful in improving the lives of black Americans. Reparations could also be a distraction, he said.

In a 2004 questionnaire, he told the NAACP, "I fear that reparations would be an excuse for some to say, 'We've paid our debt,' and to avoid the much harder work."

Taking questions Sunday at a conference of minority journalists, Obama said he would be willing to talk to American Indian leaders about an apology for the nation's treatment of their people.

Pressed for his position on apologizing to blacks or offering reparations, Obama said he was more interested in taking action to help people struggling to get by. Because many of them are minorities, he said, that would help the same people who would stand to benefit from reparations.

"If we have a program, for example, of universal health care, that will disproportionately affect people of color, because they're disproportionately uninsured," Obama said. "If we've got an agenda that says every child in America should get — should be able to go to college, regardless of income, that will disproportionately affect people of color, because it's oftentimes our children who can't afford to go to college."

One reparations advocate, Vernellia Randall, a law professor at the University of Dayton, bluntly responded: "I think he's dead wrong."

She said aid to the poor in general won't close the gaps — poor blacks would still trail poor whites, and middle-class blacks would still lag behind middle-class whites. Instead, assistance must be aimed directly at the people facing the after-effects of slavery and Jim Crow laws, she said.

"People say he can't run and get elected if he says those kinds of things," Randall said. "I'm like, well does that mean we're really not ready for a black president?"

(This version CORRECTS the headlines to delete the reference to Obama not supporting an apology for slavery, which he does support.)
 
Lammie":2ob3r4z7 said:
The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races.

Haven't we been doing this for the past 45 years? Some, including me, would say it has created a dependence on the government that's only made the problem worse.

How's this for a scenario? I found out a few years ago that I am a direct descendant of a "stationmaster". That is someone who harbored escaped slaves in their home during the Underground Railroad years until they could safely get them to freedom, either in a northern "free state" or Canada. My ancestor was eventually caught and spent almost four years in prison for their "crime" back in the 1840's.

Now, if we could find the descendants of the slaves that my ancestor helped to freedom 160 years ago, could I claim that they owed me something? Or perhaps I would simply be exempt from having to pay into some kind of reparations fund. Should I receive some kind of benefits from something that happened 160 years ago and that no one alive today was involved in? The idea is ludicrous to me, and so is the idea of reparations.
 
Don't be silly, Lammie.
I for one am willing to point to my curly hair and other assets and "take the money". I'm just afraid they will make me take my shirt off. Under the farmer's tan, I'm awfully white.
I want a 50% rebate if they pass this. Mom's German ancestors did'nt get here until well after the slaves had been freed.
 
Well said Van.
The past is the past, we either learn from it or we repeat it.

Crowder :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
 
VanC":6mby8lqi said:
Lammie":6mby8lqi said:
The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races.

Haven't we been doing this for the past 45 years? Some, including me, would say it has created a dependence on the government that's only made the problem worse.

The idea is ludicrous to me, and so is the idea of reparations.
Ok ~ I agree that government dependence is a problem, and it is a problem created by the government to a degree. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their situations. That being said ~ what is the solution? Anyone?
 
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angie":3vfhx3lr said:
VanC":3vfhx3lr said:
Lammie":3vfhx3lr said:
The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races.

Haven't we been doing this for the past 45 years? Some, including me, would say it has created a dependence on the government that's only made the problem worse.

The idea is ludicrous to me, and so is the idea of reparations.
Ok ~ I agree that government dependence is a problem, and it is a problem created by the government to a degree. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their situations. That being said ~ what is the solution? Anyone?

The solution is to look in the mirror and realize that no matter how much you bitch about life, the only person who can make you or break you - is you.

Time for folks to move on - otherwise I am going to sue the British government for what they did to my folks back in the times of the potato famine.

My wife will want to sue both the US and Canadian governments for what they did to her ancestors during the indian wars.

And I suspect my children will want to sue both of us for the way we treated them by forcing them to eat proper food, go to school and - horrors - actually do some work on the farm - I have been told child labour is now illegal! :D

In the end those who cling to past wrongs will simply keep bringing themselves down - and you know, there are people who get quite rich by encouraging this.

Bez+
 
angie":3jdym95j said:
VanC":3jdym95j said:
Lammie":3jdym95j said:
The NAACP says reparations could take the form of government programs to help struggling people of all races.

Haven't we been doing this for the past 45 years? Some, including me, would say it has created a dependence on the government that's only made the problem worse.

The idea is ludicrous to me, and so is the idea of reparations.
Ok ~ I agree that government dependence is a problem, and it is a problem created by the government to a degree. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their situations. That being said ~ what is the solution? Anyone?

Angie, I'm not trying to be a Smart A here, but what is the problem that you are looking to solve? Seriously.

We continue to act as if minorities in this country don't have any opportunity. I don't believe that is the case. I worked for the Federal government for several years (FAA) and saw minority individuals promoted over more qualified whites time after time. I have seen minorities form engineering firms and construction companies as Disadvantage Business Enterprises and become incredibly wealthy. I have seen some companies pay those DBE firms for doing nothing, just to meet the "goals" that some buearacrat was dead set on meeting at all costs. As my daughter was applying for college scholarships this year, I saw all kinds and types of scholarships set aside for minorities. I believe that opportunities exist. It's up to us as individuals to work hard in order to achieve success, whether we're black, white, red, yellow, or brown.
 
skyline":21cxp4vr said:
angie":21cxp4vr said:
VanC":21cxp4vr said:
Haven't we been doing this for the past 45 years? Some, including me, would say it has created a dependence on the government that's only made the problem worse.
Ok ~ I agree that government dependence is a problem, and it is a problem created by the government to a degree. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their situations. That being said ~ what is the solution? Anyone?

Angie, I'm not trying to be a Smart A here, but what is the problem that you are looking to solve? Seriously.

The problem is government dependence. There are citizens with valid needs and deserving of government assistance. How do you provide to those Americans without creating a dependency? We throw money to other nations to assist their people like candy at a parade, then BP&M when citizens of the US are offered anything.
 
angie":16d4vdv9 said:
Ok ~ I agree that government dependence is a problem, and it is a problem created by the government to a degree. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their situations. That being said ~ what is the solution? Anyone?

If your talking about how to get people to take more responsibility for their own lives, I don't have an answer. But I do know this: giving an alchoholic free booze won't solve their problem, giving a drug addict free heroin won't sove theirs, giving a gambling addict $1000 and dropping them off at the casino won't solve theirs, and giving folks that are dependent on government hand outs more hand outs won't solve theirs.

Skyline's post is right on the money. We have been giving reparations in the form of increased opportunities for minorities for half a century. Some have taken advantage of them and made better lives for themselves. Good for them. Others have chosen to sit back, take hand outs, and in most cases remain poor. This has created generations of folks who know no other way to survive except by taking hand outs. The opportunities are there for them to make their lives better, but they refuse to seize them. They then turn around and blame the very society that has given them billions in hand outs, and what some would say are unfair opportunities, for them being poor. Shame on them.

Again, I don't have an answer, but there has to be a better way than giving more hand outs in the form of reparations. You can't solve this, or any other problem, by giving more of what caused the problem in the first place.
 
I think maybe I have confused this by making it about all citizens when the rest of you are talking about minorities. I'm talking about people. I will say is alot of problem seeking and not so much problem solving.
 
Angie i understand you are talking people but the reperations there are wanting to give out will only go to one minority. Any thing else i can think of to say will surely get this locked. I got one more thing I don't owe any decendent of a slave one red penny. We all need to just say no!!!
 
Red Bull Breeder":34kkhtf0 said:
Angie i understand you are talking people but the reperations there are wanting to give out will only go to one minority. Any thing else i can think of to say will surely get this locked. I got one more thing I don't owe any decendent of a slave one red penny. We all need to just say no!!!
I understand that. I also am against reparations (though not an apology from the government).

I was addressing this message in the original thread:
The man with a serious chance to become the nation's first black president argues that government should instead combat the legacy of slavery by improving schools, health care and the economy for all.

However, if this is to become a thread which focuses strictly on reparations rather than general government assistance (which it has) then my comments are irrelevant. I was simply trying to broaden the discussion and seek solution.
 
I think a major problem with the US today is kids raising kids or the grandparents having too. A dispropationate amount of them may be black. Around here it can go both ways. I know bad things happen to good folks who try their best to raise there kids and yet it don't seem to work out. For what ever reason that happens it is still a minority of the major issue. I've got two girls at the age where they will be tempted to stray from what we have tried to teach them. But in the government assited housing projects ignorance breds ignorance and no handout is going to fix it. There is a deep down prejudice against all races but their own. The hispanics have displaced the blacks in many communities here. They seem to not get along very well at all here.

We have got to curb this issue. Alot of it may lay in drugs and a way to make a quick buck at someone elses expense.
 
angie":25bia481 said:
The problem is government dependence. There are citizens with valid needs and deserving of government assistance. How do you provide to those Americans without creating a dependency? We throw money to other nations to assist their people like candy at a parade, then BP&M when citizens of the US are offered anything.

OK, I understand the question. Here's what I think. Providing someone is disadvantaged and needs a helping hand...

If that person is capable of working, let's help them find a job. If they chose not to work, then they get no $$$$.

If that person is capable of learning, and desires to better themselves to find a higher paying job, then let's help them get an education. If they chose not to get an education and chose not to work, they get no $$$$.

If someone is incapable of working or learning a new job that would enable them to work, and they don't have the resources to support themselves, then let's help them out with $$$$.

As far as minorities achieving success, I believe they would do well to listen to Bill Cosby's advice instead of folks like Ludicrous. JMO.
 
skyline":2rjya33w said:
angie":2rjya33w said:
The problem is government dependence. There are citizens with valid needs and deserving of government assistance. How do you provide to those Americans without creating a dependency? We throw money to other nations to assist their people like candy at a parade, then BP&M when citizens of the US are offered anything.

OK, I understand the question. Here's what I think. Providing someone is disadvantaged and needs a helping hand...

If that person is capable of working, let's help them find a job. If they chose not to work, then they get no $$$$.

If that person is capable of learning, and desires to better themselves to find a higher paying job, then let's help them get an education. If they chose not to get an education and chose not to work, they get no $$$$.

If someone is incapable of working or learning a new job that would enable them to work, and they don't have the resources to support themselves, then let's help them out with $$$$.

As far as minorities achieving success, I believe they would do well to listen to Bill Cosby's advice instead of folks like Ludicrous. JMO.

Skyline, I respect your opinion but I'm afraid your idea makes too much sense to come out of Washington. I really can't see where there is any wiggle room for lobbyist to make a dollar. You gotta have wiggle room. Just got too.
 
Jogee, I see your point. Way too concrete. We need some abstract thrown in so that there can be plenty of loopholes. :roll:

But seriously, one of the problems with the plan that I described is assessing an individual's need and their ability to work or go to school. That's where everything breaks down... I believe it was Frank Lloyd Wright who said, "the devil is in the details."
 
skyline":3qy332bc said:
Jogee, I see your point. Way too concrete. We need some abstract thrown in so that there can be plenty of loopholes. :roll:

But seriously, one of the problems with the plan that I described is assessing an individual's need and their ability to work or go to school. That's where everything breaks down... I believe it was Frank Lloyd Wright who said, "the devil is in the details."

May not be that big of a problem. Sometimes when there is not a safety net beneath you one will cling on and muster more strength than one believes they are capable of. Many people have learned to swim in this manner. Sink or swim. Of course some have drowned. But the government should jump in as the lifeguard and not be there as the servant. I think if social services spent a little time going around and watching who was at the dance or on the basketball court you could pretty well figure out who doesn't need to be on the welfare rolls. Removing these folks, I would hope, would create better services for those who really need it. Its a shame to see an honest man who is unable to work not be able to receive help cause he refuses to lie.
 
OK, I've got to share a success story. My wife is friends with a lady who's husband used to work in a machine shop. They've got 3 kids. Had some marital problems and some problems with child protective service over the wife and her teenage stepson having it out in the front yard. Long story short, they took advantage of counseling offered by a charitable group here in our town, worked through their issues, and came out of that problem ok.

Next thing happens, the husband has a wreck and gets mangled up. His arm is badly damaged to the point of being disabled. Couldn't work in the machine shop anymore. Took advantage of a government program that offered disability payment and payment for school. Went back to junior college and got an associates degree in CAD drafting.

After graduation, he interviewed with a big industry and landed a very nice paying job. Last week they moved to their new city, into a very nice rental home (nicer than they have lived in in years) and starts work this week.

That my friends is a governmental assistance success story. I don't mind paying taxes that are used in that manner. The key is moving people that are able toward self sufficiency.
 
That's a good story. You know its only human to stumble. Its even human to fall down. Key is to pick yourself up and move forward if you are able too and I sincerely believe that most people have this ability even though they may not think they do.
 

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