Water distribution problems

[MadRanchTX]

Dun- Good tip, I was thinking get the installation complete and then move the cows every day or two until all the usage points have seen real life pressure and flow fluctuations and then do a final leak check prior to filling in the trenches.

Agmantoo- Thanks for the chart, I do similar calculations using stainless steel tubing at work. Looks like friction loss for PVC is about 10 times what stainless is.

As far as advice from the real plumbers. Thank you! My situation is obviously caused by not having and using said advice.

When I bought the place I new I would be replacing several thousand feet of fence immediately. Ended up being 7000', I got a bad case of the while I'm here's. :D I did not anticipate replacing 2-3000' of water line. That being said paid assistance is not in the cards. I don't have any problem with using first class materials, I just don't have the budget for first class materials with markup and labor. So hopefully with the advice of you fine folks and care and patients on my part, I can put in a workable and fairly trouble free system.

 

[agmantoo]

novatech

To get the losses for elevation the easiest way that I have come by this is to look at the pump and well specs. Goulds pump company has good information on their pumps and I rarely use any pump but a Goulds. Once you get the water delivery rate and pressure of the well pump selected to match within the recharge rate of the well itself and the desired quantity of water at the point of use, using a chart similar to what I posted earlier works. It is not difficult to calculate the volume and pressure then at the point of delivery.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We put a water line on the ground to our new property. It was 3000' uphill (well, downhill than straight uphill) (right at 100' elevation from source to end). We called our guy that put the farm water system in (new Gould pumps). He said to use 1.25" pipe and we shouldn't have any problem. Well, we ran all the lines, hooked it up. Hubby went uphill to end of water line & called & said turn it on. It took 27 minutes before water came out on his end, but it had more water pressure than here at the source! This is strickly summer/fall water line - all drained now for winter.

 

[agmantoo]

Jeanne - Simme Valley

The 27 minutes to reach the end was right on for a source that was supplying ~10 gallons per minute. It would take 285 gallons of water just to fill the pipe. You have a very good delivery rate to your waterer(s)


For anyone purchasing a large amount of PCV it may benefit to compare prices of the PVC pipe by size before purchasing. Sometimes it is cheaper to buy the common size sold by volume to the market as compare to a less used diameter. On my last PVC purchase I bought from a wholesaler bell end 1 1/2 inch cheaper than 1 1/4 inch.

 

[angus9259]

I always leave the line uncovered - even for a couple days - to check for leaks before backfilling. I bury 50" down (sure wish I lived in a frost free area!). I use standard underground tubing - like they use to come from the well to the house - not sure that's how they get to the houses everywhere, but it prevents a lot of "joints" you might get otherwise.

 

[dun]

Jeanne - Simme Valley

The 27 minutes to reach the end was right on for a source that was supplying ~10 gallons per minute. It would take 285 gallons of water just to fill the pipe. You have a very good delivery rate to your waterer(s)


For anyone purchasing a large amount of PCV it may benefit to compare prices of the PVC pipe by size before purchasing. Sometimes it is cheaper to buy the common size sold by volume to the market as compare to a less used diameter. On my last PVC purchase I bought from a wholesaler bell end 1 1/2 inch cheaper than 1 1/4 inch.

It also doesn;t hurt to talk to the boss and see if for a quantity they'll knock the price down some. I buy a pallet of cement and have them deliver it. I dickered with them enough that I still get it delivered for less then if I just bought it from them and had to haul and unload it myself

 

[novatech]

novatech

To get the losses for elevation the easiest way that I have come by this is to look at the pump and well specs. Goulds pump company has good information on their pumps and I rarely use any pump but a Goulds. Once you get the water delivery rate and pressure of the well pump selected to match within the recharge rate of the well itself and the desired quantity of water at the point of use, using a chart similar to what I posted earlier works. It is not difficult to calculate the volume and pressure then at the point of delivery.

Basicly you will loose 4.33 lbs of preasure per 10 ft. of rise. Or you gain 4.33 lbs per foot of fall. Once this is known then you can go to your friction loss on pipe size, as per the charts you posted. This tid bit of info. is probable unimportant in this cercumstance because he only filling a water trough and preasure will usually not play an important role.

 

[plumber_greg]

Could I ask the people that leave the pipe uncovered and turn the water on what good that does? A leak will show up almost as soon as the water is on, and there is no way to fix it if it leaks without digging it up, covered or not covered. It's impossible. Less leaks will happen if it's covered before it's pressurizied. Without cover the waterlines move and cause problems. But what do I know. I wasn't gonna' even comment. gs

 

[dun]

Could I ask the people that leave the pipe uncovered and turn the water on what good that does? A leak will show up almost as soon as the water is on, and there is no way to fix it if it leaks without digging it up, covered or not covered. It's impossible. Less leaks will happen if it's covered before it's pressurizied. Without cover the waterlines move and cause problems. But what do I know. I wasn't gonna' even comment. gs

If it's pressuerized those weak joints will seep when it flexes. Easier to repair then then to have to dig up a 5 foot long section 3 foot deep to find that tiny leak. All I leave uncovered is the places where there is a joint, the long sections in between I cover. But what do I know, I'm not a professional

 

[novatech]

Could I ask the people that leave the pipe uncovered and turn the water on what good that does? A leak will show up almost as soon as the water is on, and there is no way to fix it if it leaks without digging it up, covered or not covered. It's impossible. Less leaks will happen if it's covered before it's pressurizied. Without cover the waterlines move and cause problems. But what do I know. I wasn't gonna' even comment. gs

With irrigation we have to pressure them up before cover for the inspection.

 

[novatech]

I could give lots of advice, but I don't want to because their's a lot of ways to do things, and any other than mine is wrong. Just one thing novatech, when you put the glue on plastic pipe, if you feel you must put some in the socket of the pipe you are gluing, put VERY little. My way is to clean both, and put the glue on pipe only. gs

OK; I have given this lots of thought. We also wipe the extra glue off the out side. So if I need to do this on the outside then I should also do it on the inside. We know that is not possible so I guess I will have to change my ways. Thanks for the advice.

 

[plumber_greg]

I understand Dun, I thought you left the whole trench uncovered. I remember one time I left a trench open overnight and the guy's hired hand turned the water on, had a blow out, 500' of trench full of water, and no way to know where the leak was. Even the backfill material was too wet to put back in the trench. I just didn't want someone have an experence like that the first time they try a major project like MadRanch is talking about. gs

 

[dun]

I understand Dun, I thought you left the whole trench uncovered. I remember one time I left a trench open overnight and the guy's hired hand turned the water on, had a blow out, 500' of trench full of water, and no way to know where the leak was. Even the backfill material was too wet to put back in the trench. I just didn't want someone have an experence like that the first time they try a major project like MadRanch is talking about. gs

Any sharp turns I also drive in a piece of rebar (if I can) if not I brace it with rocks. I can always find a rock!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We grow rocks!!!

 

[Angus Cowman]

We grow rocks!!!

ours breed they are our most prolific herd they just keep mutiplying with NO inputs :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We grow rocks!!!

ours breed they are our most prolific herd they just keep mutiplying with NO inputs :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: Yeah, I hear ya. When we first moved to NY (from Kansas), hubby saw a neighbor planting corn and he said "how do they think the corn is going to grow with all that rock left in the field??" Well, locals say the rocks help warm up the ground so the corn CAN grow :banana:

 

[jedstivers]

We have to haul rocks 100 miles to get them.

 

[dun]

We have to haul rocks 100 miles to get them.

Hoe far are you form Lebanon, MO? Is it less then 100 miles?

 

[bear]

[ Anyone tried 'PEX' as a header, seems like any easier installation and less joints (places of possible failure).[/quote]

I think what you are talking about is polyethylene. It does make a good mainline. We use polyethylene for the branches also. As Plumber Greg mentioned, everybody has a little different way of doing the same thing based on material availability, cost and etc. I don't mean to step on any toes.

We use mostly 200 psi. polyethylene due to the fact that it tends to be more pliable than PVC. Polyethylene is a little more expensive per foot but I think it is more forgiving to trench settling and other pressures such as bumping into a hydrant or cattle rubbing on a hydrant. PVC becomes more brittle when it is cold. The biggest draw back to polyethylene, can be the cost of the brass fittings and the pak-joint fittings used to connect the pipe. It will never come apart but they are expensive if you have several joints to make.

Another option using polyethylene is HDPE (high density polyethylene). Pipe and fittings are fused together by heating the pipe and fittings with a fusion machine and then the two are pulled together until the joint cools. There are a few pipe suppliers that rent the fusion machines and will teach you, usually free of charge, how to make the joints if you buy your material through them. The most common use of this type of installation is in natural gas mains and services, however, it is becoming very popular in water distribution. The wall thickness is greater on HDPE and friction loss will be greater. If you are running long distances you might want to consider 2 inch instead of 1 1/2 inch particularly if you plan on filling large tanks and want to fill them quickly. HDPE pipe is tough and the fused joints are very strong.
Bear

 

[jedstivers]

We have to haul rocks 100 miles to get them.

Hoe far are you form Lebanon, MO? Is it less then 100 miles?

287 miles. Last year AC and his gate opener (also the worker of the whole ranch :tiphat: ) brought my wife a big ol rock for her Bday.