Using Composite Breed Bulls

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driggsimm

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What is ya'll opinion on using composite breed bulls on commercial cowherds? They have been doing it with chickens, pigs and row crops for years with great success. I am interested in other's opinions. Thanks
 

Frankie

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driggsimm":10jovfbd said:
What is ya'll opinion on using composite breed bulls on commercial cowherds? They have been doing it with chickens, pigs and row crops for years with great success. I am interested in other's opinions. Thanks

Chickens and pigs are mostly raised indoors. Their genetics are well known by the owners. Do you know the genetics of your commercial cowherd? IMO, unless you know the genetic history of every commercial cow that you own, you're better off using a registered purebred bull (preferably Angus, but that's just me). The biggest complaint by consumers about beef is lack of consistency. If you have a three way cross cow herd and put a crossbred bull on them, it's unlikely you'll get a consistent calf crop.
 
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Anonymous

I've used 3way crosses with mixed results. I think you lose the value of potential genetic enhancement to your herd, as the genes become diluted and your ability to assess EPD values and impact on your herd are lost. In an industry where grid values and personal reputation often drive your bottom line why would you risk breeding to something unknown or of higher potential economic loss. On the other hand if you're lucky and hit it right, your calf crop could be a set of superstars. We've moved to a solid AI program maintaining our SimmAngus cross, for cleanup we use Registered Simmental cross bulls. Good luck with your choice.
 

A. delaGarza

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driggsimm":2drwn0y9 said:
What is ya'll opinion on using composite breed bulls on commercial cowherds? They have been doing it with chickens, pigs and row crops for years with great success. I am interested in other's opinions. Thanks
the only way to have a well balanced commercial herd is by having purebred bulls with it
 
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driggsimm

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I think that there are distinct advantages to using hybrid bulls on your commercial cowherd, but there are also pitfalls. No crossbred animal is going to be any better than the parents that went into making that animal. So if you start with trash animals, then you will be very disapointed. However if you have a planned crossbreeding plan that is made up of breeds that compliment each other, then you may be onto something. As a purebreed cattle breeder for many years, it is a tough pill to swallow, to breed some of your very best purebreed Simmental cows by Artificial Insemination to Reg. Black Angus bulls, but once you see the resulting offspring, most of your misgivings are relieved. We have been using a planned mating program of using high growth and high maternal Simmental cows mated to high growth, easy calving and high carcass value Reg. Black Angus bulls with excellent results. If you have a herd of mostly purebred black Angus commercial cows, you can mate them to an F1 SimAngus bull with tremendous results. The resulting calves will have more muscle, growth and hybrid vigor than any purebred calf you can imagine. If you haven't tried it, it is very much worth a chance. :)
 

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driggsimm":i2d98hkr said:
I think that there are distinct advantages to using hybrid bulls on your commercial cowherd, but there are also pitfalls. No crossbred animal is going to be any better than the parents that went into making that animal. So if you start with trash animals, then you will be very disapointed. However if you have a planned crossbreeding plan that is made up of breeds that compliment each other, then you may be onto something. As a purebreed cattle breeder for many years, it is a tough pill to swallow, to breed some of your very best purebreed Simmental cows by Artificial Insemination to Reg. Black Angus bulls, but once you see the resulting offspring, most of your misgivings are relieved. We have been using a planned mating program of using high growth and high maternal Simmental cows mated to high growth, easy calving and high carcass value Reg. Black Angus bulls with excellent results. If you have a herd of mostly purebred black Angus commercial cows, you can mate them to an F1 SimAngus bull with tremendous results. The resulting calves will have more muscle, growth and hybrid vigor than any purebred calf you can imagine. If you haven't tried it, it is very much worth a chance. :)

Will you take time to tell us which Angus bulls are working best in your situation. And which ones don't work? Thanks....
 
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driggsimm

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SAV 8180 Traveler 004 - A son of Sitz Traveler 8180 and Boyd New Day's full ET sister makes an excellent F1 SimAngus composite. Boyd New Day 8005 - A son of New Trend and out of a Leachman Right Time sired cow does an excellent job and the most proven Angus bull for use back on Simmental cows is without a doubt Alberda Traveler 416 - a son of DHD Traveler 6807 and a daughter of New Trend 315. Semen on these three bulls is available from Genex Cooperative. We AI'd some Simmental heifers to Bon View New Design 878 this Spring. We'll have to wait and see on those. I wish you good luck.
 
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Anonymous

I disagree that you get too much inconsistency by just using a composite bull, and consequently a person should only use purebred bulls. It strictly depends on the parents that were crossed to make the composite bulls. This is no different with the purebred bulls; especially black Angus. There is such a huge variation in phenotype and genotype within the Angus herdbook that a person can get a very inconsistent calf crop from some purebred bulls (yes, even from black Angus bulls, believe it or not).

I think the use of composite bulls will increase significantly in future years. For one thing, many commercial herds are a blend of low percentage British/high percentage Continental cows and high % British/low % Continental cows. Breeding them to either a purebred British or Continental bull continues to keep the calf crop inconsistent. One of the advantages of using a good composite (50% British/50% Continental) bull is that the resulting calf crop is much more similar in British and Continental blood.
 
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driggsimm

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I agree 100% in that you can get more variation from lines within a given breed than you can from animals crossed between breeds sometimes. Like you said, it is all in the matings. Where a lot of cattlemen miss the boat on using composite bulls is that they can simplify crossbreeding and cashing in on hybrid vigor by letting the bull be a crossbred rather than their cows. Pretty much everyone knows that you get maximum heterosis from crossing a third breed of bull back onto an F1 cow. Example, using a PB Simmental bull back onto an F1 Brahman X Angus cow. You can do almost as well by using an F1 Simmental X Angus bull (Or similar breeding) back onto a Hereford cow or a Braford, etc. What matters most is that the F1 bull that you are using is a genetically high quality animal.
 

dun

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The F1 bull only address' the individual heterosis. A recent study claimed only a 7% improvment was attributed to individual while 30% was maternal from an F1 cow.

dun


driggsimm":10opj1q5 said:
I agree 100% in that you can get more variation from lines within a given breed than you can from animals crossed between breeds sometimes. Like you said, it is all in the matings. Where a lot of cattlemen miss the boat on using composite bulls is that they can simplify crossbreeding and cashing in on hybrid vigor by letting the bull be a crossbred rather than their cows. Pretty much everyone knows that you get maximum heterosis from crossing a third breed of bull back onto an F1 cow. Example, using a PB Simmental bull back onto an F1 Brahman X Angus cow. You can do almost as well by using an F1 Simmental X Angus bull (Or similar breeding) back onto a Hereford cow or a Braford, etc. What matters most is that the F1 bull that you are using is a genetically high quality animal.
 
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driggsimm

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According to a recent study by MARC (Meat Animal Research Center) you can get up to 87% of maximum hybrid vigor in your calf crop by selectively mating hybrid bulls to commercial cows from a different breed makeup than your hybrid bull.

I would be interested in knowing which study stated that you would only get 7% of maximum hybrid vigor from utilizing a composite bull.
 

dun

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I don't have all of the stuff anymore but it was the UofNM, OKSU, and a couple of other universities. The way the arrived at this was over a number of years. The straightbred calves from straighbred cows were compared to crossbred calves from straighbred cows, and straightbred calves from crossbred cows and crossbred calves from crossbred cows were used. I saw the article a couple of months ago in the Midwest Cattleman. I'm just curious how they got straighbred calves from crossbred calves without using ET which would skew BWs. Basicly all calves from crossbred calves were heavier at weaning then those from straighbreds. And crossbred calves outweighed the straighbred calves.

dun


driggsimm":1jfvj7xt said:
According to a recent study by MARC (Meat Animal Research Center) you can get up to 87% of maximum hybrid vigor in your calf crop by selectively mating hybrid bulls to commercial cows from a different breed makeup than your hybrid bull.

I would be interested in knowing which study stated that you would only get 7% of maximum hybrid vigor from utilizing a composite bull.
 
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Anonymous

driggsimm":1kdlxw7n said:
According to a recent study by MARC (Meat Animal Research Center) you can get up to 87% of maximum hybrid vigor in your calf crop by selectively mating hybrid bulls to commercial cows from a different breed makeup than your hybrid bull.

I would be interested in knowing which study stated that you would only get 7% of maximum hybrid vigor from utilizing a composite bull.
SORRY WHAT IS A COMPOSITE BULL, TANKS
 

A. delaGarza

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JFH":221o38i5 said:
driggsimm":221o38i5 said:
According to a recent study by MARC (Meat Animal Research Center) you can get up to 87% of maximum hybrid vigor in your calf crop by selectively mating hybrid bulls to commercial cows from a different breed makeup than your hybrid bull.

I would be interested in knowing which study stated that you would only get 7% of maximum hybrid vigor from utilizing a composite bull.
SORRY WHAT IS A COMPOSITE BULL, TANKS
a crossbred bull that has several different breeds in its blood, example Santa Cruz breed, has 4 breeds: Brahman, Shorthorn, Gelvieh and Red Angus
 

dun

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I think this is one place that things are getting a little murkey. In the true sense, a composite is a combination of breeds that have been bred to others of the same breed makeup and have become a standard breeding population. Gerts, Santa Cruz, Beefmaster, etc. They're also sometimes referred to as American breeds. In this particular discussion I think we are speaking more of using an F1, i.e. Balancer (angus-Gelbvieh), black baldy (Hereford-Angus) SimmAngus-Simmenthal-Angus, SenAngus-Senepol-Angus, Brahman-Hereford , Brahman-Angus, etc.
The term composite has just gotten so imprecise with the combination of breeds(?) being created.
Just my thoughts

dun

A. delaGarza":2hjmzlpd said:
a crossbred bull that has several different breeds in its blood, example Santa Cruz breed, has 4 breeds: Brahman, Shorthorn, Gelvieh and Red Angus
 

A. delaGarza

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dun":34twtp9i said:
I think this is one place that things are getting a little murkey. In the true sense, a composite is a combination of breeds that have been bred to others of the same breed makeup and have become a standard breeding population. Gerts, Santa Cruz, Beefmaster, etc. They're also sometimes referred to as American breeds. In this particular discussion I think we are speaking more of using an F1, i.e. Balancer (angus-Gelbvieh), black baldy (Hereford-Angus) SimmAngus-Simmenthal-Angus, SenAngus-Senepol-Angus, Brahman-Hereford , Brahman-Angus, etc.
The term composite has just gotten so imprecise with the combination of breeds(?) being created.
Just my thoughts

dun, you're right but it's easier to understand it the other way, crossbred created with different breeds where some of them are recognize as purebreeds

A. delaGarza":34twtp9i said:
a crossbred bull that has several different breeds in its blood, example Santa Cruz breed, has 4 breeds: Brahman, Shorthorn, Gelvieh and Red Angus
 

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