Unreasonable Expectations

[Son of Butch]

In another posting one member told another that if he used a better bull he could increase his weaning weights 250 lbs.
That is simply not a realistic expectation.
The Top Bull in the Angus breed sires calves that average 42 lbs more at weaning than breed average.
The Bottom Bull sires calves that average 46 pounds less at weaning than breed average.
So IF you switched from using the very worst angus bull to the very best angus bull, 88 lbs would be the expected difference, not 250 lbs.

The guy claiming 250 lbs just buying a better bull wasn't even trying to sell a bull.
Imagine the sales pitch if he had one for sale

 

[retro]

Who ever posted that Dumb @$$ comment is a Idiot and probably had to wear a helmet when they rode the litlle yellow short bus to school :dunce: 250lbs is a lot of meat.. Have him produce a bull that can do that I sure would be interested in that bull as long as the BW on the calves wasn't 250 lbs also... your number are way more realistic

 

[AllForage]

Ssshhhh don't let the secret out!!!

 

[LRTX1]

I disagree. Buying a good bull can add pounds, and dollars, to your calves at weaning. And I'm not selling bulls, so I don't have a dog in the hunt.

By the way, no offense to highgrit, but 30 years ago I was satisfied with a 8 or 9 month old calf at 400 - 500 lbs too, but now I expect a minimum close to 600 lbs, and they often reach 700 or more. And that's with Brangus and Hereford bulls and little to no creep feed.

Is this the comment?

 

[Rafter S]

I disagree. Buying a good bull can add pounds, and dollars, to your calves at weaning. And I'm not selling bulls, so I don't have a dog in the hunt.

By the way, no offense to highgrit, but 30 years ago I was satisfied with a 8 or 9 month old calf at 400 - 500 lbs too, but now I expect a minimum close to 600 lbs, and they often reach 700 or more. And that's with Brangus and Hereford bulls and little to no creep feed.

Is this the comment?

If it was it was grossly misunderstood. There are a number of factors that caused that jump in weaning weights, and it took a long time. It certainly wasn't just from switching bulls.

 

[3waycross]

I sold a Gelbvieh bull to one of the Apache reservations a few years ago. The following year their weaning weights were up 72lbs avg. They continue to climb as this bulls dtrs come into production.

This is an extreme example but it's true.

FWIW when Highgrit said his wife was happy with 450 to 500 lb weaning weights I told him she would be a lot happier with 750. Keep in mind he was talking about 8 to 9 month old calves. My avg purebred Gelbvieh bull calf weans right at 650 lbs at 205 days. The heifers are of course lighter....but not much.

 

[LRTX1]

I would hope so too rafter, I don't know how things are done elsewhere but, I just couldn't imagine in the course of 30 years only changing one bull. After 30 years somebody probably improved on management practices too. Might have even upgraded some cows along the way.

 

[Rafter S]

And if you'll look back at that post you'll see that I did not say that changing bulls would increase his weaning weight by 250 pounds, only that a good bull could improve weaning weights.

 

[Rafter S]

I would hope so too rafter, I don't know how things are done elsewhere but, I just couldn't imagine in the course of 30 years only changing one bull. After 30 years somebody probably improved on management practices too. Might have even upgraded some cows along the way.

Exactly.

 

[Son of Butch]

I disagree. Buying a good bull can add pounds, and dollars, to your calves at weaning. And I'm not selling bulls, so I don't have a dog in the hunt.

By the way, no offense to highgrit, but 30 years ago I was satisfied with a 8 or 9 month old calf at 400 - 500 lbs too, but now I expect a minimum close to 600 lbs, and they often reach 700 or more. And that's with Brangus and Hereford bulls and little to no creep feed.

Is this the comment?

NO. That was not the comment.
And I agree a good bull will add dollars to calves at weaning.
Realistically, how many dollars are added using a very good bull vs an average bull vs a poor bull?
$15 and $30 per calf
Based on over 20,000 current sire summaries an angus bull in the Top 10% of the breed adds $15 per calf weaned over breed average using current prices and $30 per calf over an angus bull in the Bottom 10%
25 calves per year x $15 = $375 per year

 

[Son of Butch]

And if you'll look back at that post you'll see that I did not say that changing bulls would increase his weaning weight by 250 pounds, only that a good bull could improve weaning weights.

Nobody said you made that comment or that you said anything of the sort.

 

[LRTX1]

Give us a hint on where to find this gem.

 

[LRTX1]

My apologies to rafter for bringing in his post.

 

[Rafter S]

Since that wasn't my post you were referring to, I may have overreacted in my replies. I am curious which one and/or whose it was.

With that being said your numbers don't add up. Using the numbers in your first post, 40 pounds improvement certainly wouldn't be unreasonable. At today's prices 40lbs extra is worth a lot more than $30.00, much less the $15.00 amount you used for your $375 per year.

 

[branguscowgirl]

sold a Gelbvieh bull to one of the Apache reservations a few years ago. The following year their weaning weights were up 72lbs avg. They continue to climb as this bulls dtrs come into production.

I think that I had read "Apaches raise Long horns."




Don't get excited, I am just kidding around! :lol:

 

[Son of Butch]

Since that wasn't my post you were referring to, I may have overreacted in my replies. I am curious which one and/or whose it was.

With that being said your numbers don't add up. Using the numbers in your first post, 40 pounds improvement certainly wouldn't be unreasonable. At today's prices 40lbs extra is worth a lot more than $30.00 much less the $15.00 amount you used for your $375 per year.

Excellent point Rafter, allow me to explain.
First the numbers are not mine they are the current numbers from the American Angus Association $W and WW.
$W = Weaned Calf Value
Weaned Calf Value is determined by factoring in both the revenue and the increased production costs. (NET VALUE)
Just using WW is misleading because it fails to account for the added production costs associated with increased production.
40 lbs certainly is worth a lot more in GROSS Dollars but we all understand the bottom line and NET profit is what matters.

Choosing good breeding stock is important because genetic progress is slow and it takes a great amount of time to produced 3 generations. BUT expectations need to be kept realistic and not to fall for Blue Sky, used car, Bull Salesmen creating unreasonable expectations and offering quick fixes by throwing more money at their bull.

 

[retro]

Let me pee in the punch bowl here . I don't dispute your numbers Rafter so can I use the 375.per yr lets say that bull produces 375. extra per yr. for 5 yrs that comes up to 1875. extra income I would be willing to bet that bull is not going to make you much if any extra money . because I would be willing to say that bull could cost you a extra 2000. pretty easily when you purchase him at the start. So where might be all this extra money ? O YA I forgot he is going to put that extra 250 lbs on each calf. LOL I still wish some one would find the poster that made that statment

 

[Supa Dexta]

30 lbs to every calf on 30 calves is 900 lbs more a year, I avg'd near 2.70 between my steers and heifers last fall, so that's $2430 in one year. Say you only get 3 years out of the bull, which is on the lower side, and take into account last year was a good year and may not hold. So Ill allow 2k this year, and 1500 next year - which I think is fair. Thats $5930. So thats almost 6 grand over the short life of that bull in extra income.

So say I bought a 3k bull and had no gain, or a 6k bull and acheived the 30 lb gain I'd still be 3 grand ahead. That 3k ahead would allow me to keep a few of the heifers and made good replacements each year and still broke even at the end of 3 years over the poorer doing bull.

Now the real money to be made is finding that good bull, for a low price. Then you're in the money and the genetics, but not everyone lucks into that.

There are a lot of good bulls sold out there, at around 4 yrs of age from small producers who can't breed back to their own heifers. Shame is most around here go for slaughter as people want the young new stud bulls.

 

[retro]

30 lbs to every calf on 30 calves is 900 lbs more a year, I avg'd near 2.70 between my steers and heifers last fall, so that's $2430 in one year. Say you only get 3 years out of the bull, which is on the lower side, and take into account last year was a good year and may not hold. So Ill allow 2k this year, and 1500 next year - which I think is fair. Thats $5930. So thats almost 6 grand over the short life of that bull in extra income.

So say I bought a 3k bull and had no gain, or a 6k bull and acheived the 30 lb gain I'd still be 3 grand ahead. That 3k ahead would allow me to keep a few of the heifers and made good replacements each year and still broke even at the end of 3 years over the poorer doing bull.

Now the real money to be made is finding that good bull, for a low price. Then you're in the money and the genetics, but not everyone lucks into that. Supa I was using Rafter's numbers and your 2.70 per lbs was not all profit was it .. My banker would run me out of his office if I was in there throwing your numbers at him. Please go back a few posts and read how and why Rafter came up with those numbers I used he does explain it well. I'am not trying to start a argument with you Supa :tiphat: I was just using his numbers the basic point is I'am calling the BS card on a post stating that a good bull will put 250 MORE lbs on a calf... AGAIN BS and show me the Bull.. :2cents:

There are a lot of good bulls sold out there, at around 4 yrs of age from small producers who can't breed back to their own heifers. Shame is most around here go for slaughter as people want the young new stud bulls.

 

[retro]

Personally I think this thread should have been called "Great Expectations" named after the classic novel we all had to read in high school English class... with famous author of the post :cboy:: ... And the renowned meat packing bull that can play the roll of the Famous PIP in the novel :lol: