mwj
Well-known member
NC Liz 2":s6km3iqp said:
This is known within the industry as''A firm chance of A possible maybe'' :cowboy:
Two stage weaning
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This is known within the industry as''A firm chance of A possible maybe'' :cowboy:
Lucky_P
Well-known member
We all know who you are. The constant drumbeat on commodity feeds and sulfur are telling. Just waiting on the 'white-eye' claims to resurface...
No, I don't agree; most of your postulations are off-base.
1. Yes, the cow's milk production will be nominal by 5-7 months, but they don't all kick the calf off; I've seen way too many big yearling calves still nursing the cow when she calves the next time - especially in those 'year-round calving' herds.
I'm not overly concerned about the stress of weaning on the COW, though I think it's diminished, compared to abrupt separation. My bigger concern is for that calf that is still building immunity, and will likely be 'leaving' for a new home, where it will be comingled with other calves, all carrying their own 'set' of bacteria/viruses.
The calves with nose blabs aren't 'constantly assaulting' their dams trying to nurse - they're off grazing and doing what they do all day long at that age; they do come back and stand by the cow some, but it's not distressing to the cow.
2.The nose blabs do absolutely NOTHING to promote mastitis. There is no connection whatsoever.
If you think a calf butting a cow's udder causes mastitis...then every beef cow would have it. Have you ever watched an aggressively-nursing calf without a nose-blab? A lot of them are pretty danged rough on the old gals' bags - but they don't develop mastitis.
Minimal to no udder-butting with the weaners, as they can't latch on to a teat to get started.
Sure, the cows will have some udder distension - but no more than they'd have if you just separated cow and calf, or did fenceline weaning.
3. My Procedure: Calves are run into chute and headgate. Nose blabs are inserted. Calves are released back out with their dams for 4-7 days.
After that period, calves are run back through the chute, nose blabs are removed, and the calves are turned into a pasture separate from their dams - usually with yearling heifers separated from the bull and bred cows due to calve in the next season - they're not strangers.
They go right on doing what they were doing before - just not with their dams. If it's spring/summer, they're grazing with the group, if it's fall/winter, they're eating hay and some(gasp!) distiller's grain product with the group. Even with the spring/summer weaned calves, we feed a small amount of distiller's grain just so they know what feed and a feedbunk are.
Most of our calves are in the 6-7 month age range when we wean; typically 450-700 lb, depending on breed, parity of dam, season of year.
Biggest stress - on the calves and ME! - is having to run 'em through the chute twice.
Yeah, it's a lot more trouble than just loading 'em on the trailer on their way to the salebarn - which is how I used to 'wean', when I was doing the no-management year-round calving deal.
BUT, that is not good for the calves, the next fellow buying those stressed non-vaccinated calves, or for the beef industry as a whole.
For many years, Southeastern cattle have had a bad reputation and have been discounted (and rightfully so) because so many of them were this sort of wreck in the making. That's changing some, as producers see the benefits of doing pre-weaning vaccination, weaning and pre-conditioning - and the fact that buyers are usually willing to pay more for calves that aren't going to be so likely to fall apart on 'em a week or two out...
No one is forcing you to use them. They're not for everyone's operation - but they are a proven, valuable aid in accomplishing lower-stress weaning.
No, I don't agree; most of your postulations are off-base.
1. Yes, the cow's milk production will be nominal by 5-7 months, but they don't all kick the calf off; I've seen way too many big yearling calves still nursing the cow when she calves the next time - especially in those 'year-round calving' herds.
I'm not overly concerned about the stress of weaning on the COW, though I think it's diminished, compared to abrupt separation. My bigger concern is for that calf that is still building immunity, and will likely be 'leaving' for a new home, where it will be comingled with other calves, all carrying their own 'set' of bacteria/viruses.
The calves with nose blabs aren't 'constantly assaulting' their dams trying to nurse - they're off grazing and doing what they do all day long at that age; they do come back and stand by the cow some, but it's not distressing to the cow.
2.The nose blabs do absolutely NOTHING to promote mastitis. There is no connection whatsoever.
If you think a calf butting a cow's udder causes mastitis...then every beef cow would have it. Have you ever watched an aggressively-nursing calf without a nose-blab? A lot of them are pretty danged rough on the old gals' bags - but they don't develop mastitis.
Minimal to no udder-butting with the weaners, as they can't latch on to a teat to get started.
Sure, the cows will have some udder distension - but no more than they'd have if you just separated cow and calf, or did fenceline weaning.
3. My Procedure: Calves are run into chute and headgate. Nose blabs are inserted. Calves are released back out with their dams for 4-7 days.
After that period, calves are run back through the chute, nose blabs are removed, and the calves are turned into a pasture separate from their dams - usually with yearling heifers separated from the bull and bred cows due to calve in the next season - they're not strangers.
They go right on doing what they were doing before - just not with their dams. If it's spring/summer, they're grazing with the group, if it's fall/winter, they're eating hay and some(gasp!) distiller's grain product with the group. Even with the spring/summer weaned calves, we feed a small amount of distiller's grain just so they know what feed and a feedbunk are.
Most of our calves are in the 6-7 month age range when we wean; typically 450-700 lb, depending on breed, parity of dam, season of year.
Biggest stress - on the calves and ME! - is having to run 'em through the chute twice.
Yeah, it's a lot more trouble than just loading 'em on the trailer on their way to the salebarn - which is how I used to 'wean', when I was doing the no-management year-round calving deal.
BUT, that is not good for the calves, the next fellow buying those stressed non-vaccinated calves, or for the beef industry as a whole.
For many years, Southeastern cattle have had a bad reputation and have been discounted (and rightfully so) because so many of them were this sort of wreck in the making. That's changing some, as producers see the benefits of doing pre-weaning vaccination, weaning and pre-conditioning - and the fact that buyers are usually willing to pay more for calves that aren't going to be so likely to fall apart on 'em a week or two out...
No one is forcing you to use them. They're not for everyone's operation - but they are a proven, valuable aid in accomplishing lower-stress weaning.
Thank you Lucky_P for a well thought out explanation of how to properly utilize wean flaps as a management tool.
beltedmommacow
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We have a small herd of mostly angus and we weaned our heifers and are planning to use them as replacements for breeding this summer and I have put the so called weaned calves back with cows and a few of my cows are bottle baby's and they don't seem to care that these calves are nursing on them no milk i'm sure but next month they will start having milk in and i'm afraid if they get a taste of milk they will keep going and will take colostrum from unborn calves , does everyone keep their replacement heifers separate till they are bred themselves or what??? 
no way i'm putting these nose ring things on. help
no way i'm putting these nose ring things on. help
regolith
Well-known member
greybeard":3o06nq75 said:
When I've used them/seen them used it's been on adult cows and they're left in permanently. Yes, there's potential for them to cause sores inside the nostril. You weigh that against the advantages... in the case of a cow, you're keeping a sucker who would otherwise have to be culled.
Last one I used was bought for a heifer about eleven months old that hooked up with a 2 yr old whose calf I'd kidnapped. The spikes were effective & I removed them at the end of mating some six months later when I was ready to put the heifer out with younger calves, that heifer is now a three year old cow and has never been caught sucking another cow. I don't recall any sores when I removed the spikes, if there were any they would have healed up quickly.
randiliana
Well-known member
beltedmommacow":fi6vmagl said:We have a small herd of mostly angus and we weaned our heifers and are planning to use them as replacements for breeding this summer and I have put the so called weaned calves back with cows and a few of my cows are bottle baby's and they don't seem to care that these calves are nursing on them no milk i'm sure but next month they will start having milk in and i'm afraid if they get a taste of milk they will keep going and will take colostrum from unborn calves , does everyone keep their replacement heifers separate till they are bred themselves or what???
We keep ours separated until we breed them, and often until they are actually bred and going into the herd.
At this point, you had better get them weaned and stopped sucking. If they are sucking even though the cow has no milk, ( and I wouldn't bet on them not having milk at this point) it isn't going to stop when she has milk. You may never get them stopped, but I would be separating them and keeping them separate for as long as you possibly can.
Now lets discuss stress as it pertains to the calf.
First lets define weaning.
There are three element to weaning.
Removing a calf from its momma
Removing the calf from its milk source
Trauma of going trough a sale barn and being placed in unfamiliar surroundings
Anything else, such as castration, vaccination, worming, de-horning, bunker feeding etc is defined under preconditioning.
The easiest and lest costly, but not necessarily the most profitable way, is to wean on wheels.
This is when you remove a calf from his mamma and milk and send him through the sale barn all in the same day.
The stress time is around 24 hrs. plus a recovery time of approx. 5 days.
Weight loss to the seller is approx. 10%.
Total stress time 6 days.
IMO, here is what happens if you use nose flaps.
The calf is denied his milk for 5 days and is given no replacement to compensate him for his nutritional and antibiotic needs that he would have received from him momma.
Weigh loss approx. 10% if not more.
He is then sent through the sale barn where the stress time is around 24 hrs. plus a recovery time of approx. 5 days for a total stress time of 11 days.
Weight loss approx. another 10% for a total weight loss of 20% and the calf has been without passive antibiotics for 6 days he may now have a compromised immune system .
Now which scenario do you think is best for the seller, the buyer, the cow, the calf and the cattle industry?
To me the use of nose flaps is like putting a pack of cigarettes in from of a smoker who is trying yo quit and not letting him have any.
I am not saying you should not use nose flaps, I am just saying you should know and consider all the facts before deciding.
Liz
First lets define weaning.
There are three element to weaning.
Removing a calf from its momma
Removing the calf from its milk source
Trauma of going trough a sale barn and being placed in unfamiliar surroundings
Anything else, such as castration, vaccination, worming, de-horning, bunker feeding etc is defined under preconditioning.
The easiest and lest costly, but not necessarily the most profitable way, is to wean on wheels.
This is when you remove a calf from his mamma and milk and send him through the sale barn all in the same day.
The stress time is around 24 hrs. plus a recovery time of approx. 5 days.
Weight loss to the seller is approx. 10%.
Total stress time 6 days.
IMO, here is what happens if you use nose flaps.
The calf is denied his milk for 5 days and is given no replacement to compensate him for his nutritional and antibiotic needs that he would have received from him momma.
Weigh loss approx. 10% if not more.
He is then sent through the sale barn where the stress time is around 24 hrs. plus a recovery time of approx. 5 days for a total stress time of 11 days.
Weight loss approx. another 10% for a total weight loss of 20% and the calf has been without passive antibiotics for 6 days he may now have a compromised immune system .
Now which scenario do you think is best for the seller, the buyer, the cow, the calf and the cattle industry?
To me the use of nose flaps is like putting a pack of cigarettes in from of a smoker who is trying yo quit and not letting him have any.
I am not saying you should not use nose flaps, I am just saying you should know and consider all the facts before deciding.
Liz
OakCreekRanch
Well-known member
It's easier to put the calves in the pen and leave them there for few days to two weeks before the sale barn than put nose flaps on all calves. Just saying.
cross_7
Well-known member
The point is less stress which causes less sickness and weight loss
Just saying
Just saying
OakCreekRanch
Well-known member
And less labor.....just saying! ;-)cross_7":2kmyy0ky said:
Saw something on the video that interested me that I haven't seen or used before.
At minute 3:58 look at that style /separator/creep gate.
I like that, and if it is easy to adjust it may even work for different size calves.
Just might give that design a try.
Liz
At minute 3:58 look at that style /separator/creep gate.
I like that, and if it is easy to adjust it may even work for different size calves.
Just might give that design a try.
Liz
mwj
Well-known member
NC Liz 2":21i4132l said:
Do you ever hurt yourself when you make some of your wild leaps? How in the world would you conclude that the sale barn was one of the three parts of weaning. :???: Can you wrap your mind around the fact that there are many tens of thousands of calves that never see a sale barn when they are weaned.
mwj,
Do you always shoot from the hip without first thinking?
All of the above also applies to those calves, except for going through the ring.
Now would you like me to tell you what doesn't apply if you sell and walk your calves down the road to your neighbor? :bang:
Liz
Do you always shoot from the hip without first thinking?
Well, gee, isn't that where most beginners dispose of their cattle, and isn't trucking, confinement, going through the ring, and then more trucking and being placed in a strange environment ( some times in the middle of the night ) stressful to cattle?
Yes, can you wrap your mind around this?
All of the above also applies to those calves, except for going through the ring.
Now would you like me to tell you what doesn't apply if you sell and walk your calves down the road to your neighbor? :bang:
Liz
mwj
Well-known member
Trauma is one thing that does not apply. You make it sound like people are roping 150 pound calves and dragging them away while they are trying to nurse. Spend some time around livestock and you will find out that not everything has to be stressful. Why do you mention the middle of the night? You must think animals and people are the same, the way you word your posts. They are not used to electric lights and they do not have to lock the doors before they can go to sleep. :cowboy:
