Try This...

[lakading]

Next time you're looking to buy a bull give this a try. Instead of looking at EPDs, ask the breeder specific questions about their entire operation.

Find a breeder that raises his bulls in an environment similar to what you'll be exposing him to.

Next, tell the breeder what you're looking for (calving ease, carcass merit, growth, maternal/milk, higher weaning weights, etc.) and get his advice on the best ones for your desired traits.

Then make your selection. ONLY look at the EPDs if you cannot decide between the ones the breeder recommended.

If the breeders progam doesn't parallel yours and/or you don't trust what they are telling you, move on to the next breeder. Due dilligence will beat the pants off of EPD selection any day.

It takes more work than simply looking through sale books to compare EPDs and attending auctions. But if you take your time and get what you really want, it is well worth it.

FWIW

 

[Jovid]

I couldn't have said it any better. :clap:

Bulls that are raised on grain don't do very well when they have only grass to eat.

 

[TheLazyM]

that really made alot of sence. thanks, real good point.

 

[Frankie]

Next time you're looking to buy a bull give this a try. Instead of looking at EPDs, ask the breeder specific questions about their entire operation.

Find a breeder that raises his bulls in an environment similar to what you'll be exposing him to.

Next, tell the breeder what you're looking for (calving ease, carcass merit, growth, maternal/milk, higher weaning weights, etc.) and get his advice on the best ones for your desired traits.

Then make your selection. ONLY look at the EPDs if you cannot decide between the ones the breeder recommended.

If the breeders progam doesn't parallel yours and/or you don't trust what they are telling you, move on to the next breeder. Due dilligence will beat the pants off of EPD selection any day.

It takes more work than simply looking through sale books to compare EPDs and attending auctions. But if you take your time and get what you really want, it is well worth it.

FWIW

While I'd encourage everyone to buy their bulls from individual breeders, the fact is it's not practical for most people. That's why we have auctions. It gives the buyer a good opportunity to look at a lot of bulls at one time, in one place.

The environment is a non factor in EPDS.

EPDs are the best way to assess the breeding ability of an animal when compared to another. If my neighbor creep feeds his calves he'll probably have heavier weaning weights than our calves, even though we use the same or similar genetics. But the EPDs on the bulls we both raise would be very similar. If I developed my bulls on grass instead of sending them to a feed test, I doubt that I'd be getting 11-1300 yearling weights. But EPDs make our differences in management unimportant.

I wouldn't buy an animal because they have good EPDs. But, for sure, I wouldn't buy an animal that doesn't have good EPDs.

 

[lakading]

Next time you're looking to buy a bull give this a try. Instead of looking at EPDs, ask the breeder specific questions about their entire operation.

Find a breeder that raises his bulls in an environment similar to what you'll be exposing him to.

Next, tell the breeder what you're looking for (calving ease, carcass merit, growth, maternal/milk, higher weaning weights, etc.) and get his advice on the best ones for your desired traits.

Then make your selection. ONLY look at the EPDs if you cannot decide between the ones the breeder recommended.

If the breeders progam doesn't parallel yours and/or you don't trust what they are telling you, move on to the next breeder. Due dilligence will beat the pants off of EPD selection any day.

It takes more work than simply looking through sale books to compare EPDs and attending auctions. But if you take your time and get what you really want, it is well worth it.

FWIW

I wouldn't buy an animal because they have good EPDs. But, for sure, I wouldn't buy an animal that doesn't have good EPDs.

There is some truth to that. However, older animals have lower EPDs and yet many of them are better cattle than the "hot" young cows/bulls with higher EPDs.

Also, I still contend that if you buy from an ranch that raises seedstock in an artificial environment, thos cattle will fall apart when exposed to a commercial environment regardless of EPDs. Especially if the artificial environment has been sustained for multiple generations. If you're buying an animal to use in an artificial environment yourself, then there should be no problem.

 

[Frankie]

Don't buy "hot" young bulls. Wait until a bull's EPDs get past .85 (Angus) and he's been used across the country. You'll be less likely to be disappointed.

An animal's EPDs should reflect their breeding merit, no matther how old they are. The fact is some of the older genetics aren't as productive in today's beef industry as some of the newer genetics. For example, we have an old EXT cow. Her bottom line is Pierre. Her dam's bottom line was QAS Traveler 23-4. Both good bulls in their day, but they just don't grow and gain like some of today's bulls. The bull calves of every heifer on the place outperformed that old cow's bull calf last year. We probably should sell her, but she gets a calf every year, disposition is good, wonderful udder, etc. That's worth someting, so we'll keep her around for a few years.

 

[lakading]

Don't buy "hot" young bulls. Wait until a bull's EPDs get past .85 (Angus) and he's been used across the country. You'll be less likely to be disappointed.

An animal's EPDs should reflect their breeding merit, no matther how old they are. The fact is some of the older genetics aren't as productive in today's beef industry as some of the newer genetics. For example, we have an old EXT cow. Her bottom line is Pierre. Her dam's bottom line was QAS Traveler 23-4. Both good bulls in their day, but they just don't grow and gain like some of today's bulls. The bull calves of every heifer on the place outperformed that old cow's bull calf last year. We probably should sell her, but she gets a calf every year, disposition is good, wonderful udder, etc. That's worth someting, so we'll keep her around for a few years.

The only way you'll get a bull with over .85 accuracy is to A.I. Also, I see your point about the old cows and their EPDs, but what I was referring to was the fact that we have some low EPD old cows that out perform the younger cows with higher EPDs every year. I do agree though, that I probably discounted the validity of EPDs too much in my original post. I would still pick out the ones that I liked and fit my needs first and then use the EPDs from there.

 

[Angus Guy]

Something that hasn't been said to my knowledge is after buying a bull you need to slowly aclimate him to your enviroment. This can take anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks. This regardless of grass raised or performance tested on grain.

 

[backhoeboogie]

We all have our own thoughts. I'll keep mine to myself. Just wanted to say, "Beware of horse traders" Because they are widespread in the cattle business too. My bull is on pasture only suits me just fine. He was born on the place and knows no other.

 

[watso059]

I just bought a young reg. bull who was on free choice grain. We feed a corn and cottonseed mill mixture some (which seems to be working pretty well), but mostly high quality hay. What do you think we should do to acclimate him. He looks great and I do not want him to go downhill very much if possible, but the seller and another experienced cattleman both told me that he would probably go down once he got to our pasture. He has only been here 2 days, so he is still looking great, just wonder if youguys had some tips.

 

[lakading]

Try to keep him with no more than 30 cows and in a smaller pasture if you can. I'd also say, let him work for 90 days at the most. Then pull him out and feed him back into the BCS range that you desire.

 

[Capt Call]

Ok I will help you out I figured out why your upset with other threads, your post keeps getting knocked lower as no one is posting on it. Must not be interesting material.

 

[donnaIL]

Capt, the reason why is we don't agree. I think alot of these pages scare a young cattle person..we make our own decisions based on area and other criteria... if we listened to most the folks her we would never breed a limo..or a simi...or what ever the crosses are...but the truth is america...and other countries eat them... alot of folks use cross bred bulls in the commercial buisness...im sure all of the angus people would like them to be "registered:"

MY opinion

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Also, I still contend that if you buy from an ranch that raises seedstock in an artificial environment, thos cattle will fall apart when exposed to a commercial environment regardless of EPDs. Especially if the artificial environment has been sustained for multiple generations. If you're buying an animal to use in an artificial environment yourself, then there should be no problem.

While the "fall apart" comment may be a little too strong, I do agree that if you're buying a bull for a commercial herd, try to buy one thats been raised in an environment as close to your own as possible. Irregardless of EPDs, its going to give you a better idea of how that animal will work and survive on your ranch. Often, a high-energy, high-gain diet can mask other traits, such as thriftiness. Not saying that the animal won't do well, but its tougher to say. If an animal has done well on grass and a little bit of grain, you know they'll do very well when a high-gain diet is put to them. The reverse is not necessarily the case.

Rod

 

[donnaIL]

I breed to improve the profit as most...i imagine...the beef is the answer ...and the cows are the factory..

 

[lakading]

Ok I will help you out I figured out why your upset with other threads, your post keeps getting knocked lower as no one is posting on it. Must not be interesting material.

I really couldn't care less. I just threw this out there in case anybody cares. I'm not upset with other posts. I just don't understand why a guy with a hog bite is material for the beginners board in a cattle forum. It was a simple request. If it isn't granted, I'll leave it alone. No skin off my back.

 

[Farmhand]

Ok I will help you out I figured out why your upset with other threads, your post keeps getting knocked lower as no one is posting on it. Must not be interesting material.

I really couldn't care less. I just threw this out there in case anybody cares. I'm not upset with other posts. I just don't understand why a guy with a hog bite is material for the beginners board in a cattle forum. It was a simple request. If it isn't granted, I'll leave it alone. No skin off my back.

It's called CARING. Caustic happens to be cared about. He happens to have quite a bit of knowledge if you are capable of looking past the gruffness. Many of us consider him a valuable member of this board. I personally do not care what area his accident was posted under. I do care that he got hurt and wish him speedy recovery. Do you never talk about anything personal with your friends? You never ask about the wife and kids? Never show an interest in anyone beyond business? Just because this is a cattle board does not mean that no one on here considers others their friend. As friends, they CARE about others. I consider Caustic a friend and hope to hear updates on his recovery. And I don't care where it gets posted.

 

[lakading]

Ok I will help you out I figured out why your upset with other threads, your post keeps getting knocked lower as no one is posting on it. Must not be interesting material.

I really couldn't care less. I just threw this out there in case anybody cares. I'm not upset with other posts. I just don't understand why a guy with a hog bite is material for the beginners board in a cattle forum. It was a simple request. If it isn't granted, I'll leave it alone. No skin off my back.

It's called CARING. Caustic happens to be cared about. He happens to have quite a bit of knowledge if you are capable of looking past the gruffness. Many of us consider him a valuable member of this board. I personally do not care what area his accident was posted under. I do care that he got hurt and wish him speedy recovery. Do you never talk about anything personal with your friends? You never ask about the wife and kids? Never show an interest in anyone beyond business? Just because this is a cattle board does not mean that no one on here considers others their friend. As friends, they CARE about others. I consider Caustic a friend and hope to hear updates on his recovery. And I don't care where it gets posted.

Sorry, but I do care where it gets posted. I wouldn't wish anybody harm and I do wish him a full recovery. However, I believe it belongs in either the Coffee Shop or Everything Else forum. But, whatever.

 

[lakading]

Ok I will help you out I figured out why your upset with other threads, your post keeps getting knocked lower as no one is posting on it. Must not be interesting material.

I really couldn't care less. I just threw this out there in case anybody cares. I'm not upset with other posts. I just don't understand why a guy with a hog bite is material for the beginners board in a cattle forum. It was a simple request. If it isn't granted, I'll leave it alone. No skin off my back.

It's called CARING. Caustic happens to be cared about. He happens to have quite a bit of knowledge if you are capable of looking past the gruffness. Many of us consider him a valuable member of this board. I personally do not care what area his accident was posted under. I do care that he got hurt and wish him speedy recovery. Do you never talk about anything personal with your friends? You never ask about the wife and kids? Never show an interest in anyone beyond business? Just because this is a cattle board does not mean that no one on here considers others their friend. As friends, they CARE about others. I consider Caustic a friend and hope to hear updates on his recovery. And I don't care where it gets posted.

Sorry, I should clarify the comments that I think you were referring to. I meant that I couldn't care less about my thread getting knocked down the list. I did not mean to imply that I didn't care about Caustic's injury. Just thought there was a more appropriate place for it. No ill will meant.

 

[cypressfarms]

We don't really have a board for experienced cattle people. We go from beginners to breeds. I jump back between the two.

Donna, there are people who raise limo's here. Maybe they get a bad rap at times, but they have their place. I try to look at it from either a seedstock or commericial perspective. A seedstock person will want you to buy that registered _____ bull, but a commericial cattle person knows the value of hybrid vigor. Believe it or not, I actually like all breeds. Wish I could have some of all. Where I live, however, dictates what I have to a point. Not sure of your anger torwards angus....maybe I'm misunderstanding you.