user1
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I'd rather regret culling a good one than regret putting a bad one out there to reproduce
Tough Decision Today
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I'd rather regret culling a good one than regret putting a bad one out there to reproduce
Brandonm22
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There is nothing wrong with not being in the bull business if you don't want to be in the bull business.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Cade-
This is a very interesting and, potentially, educational thread for you this morning! As I read the posts concerning your situation, I tried to organize, in my mind, the dilemmas with which you were confronted. Let's see if these fit into some of your thinking processes:
a- Prior to his being dropped, you had HIGH hopes for his Genetic Quality because of his "high-priced' Registered dam, and because he was sired by what you considered a 'reasonably' good Angus bull! Am I right so far?
b- Upon "first blush" when viewing him as a new-born calf, he didn't come up to your anticipations which were designed for the previous nine months! There is an "old saying" that states "Anticipation Is Greater Than The Realization!"
c- If he was "a kind of average Angus calf" when he was dropped, perhaps he was a result of his sire and dam having a low BW EPD, ( somewhere around 0.0, or less?) If that is the case, and his BW was 60# or less, he was born rather easily (BONUS!), but certainly did not LOOK like a three month bull calf! So far - so good.
d- You state that "he is doing fine and growing okay". The important evidence which should be considered at this time is - is he growing satisfactorily enough, given the above factors, and have you given adequate thought regarding his Phenotype, Genotype, and Functional Traits, and relating them to his CURRENT age and Frame score.
IF you have done all of the Homework required in making the decision you have stated, and still feel that your original judgement in steering the calf is correct - fine! I don't have a problem with your decision-making protocols so long as you know WHY you make the determination to ship him this fall. But - using single-trait selection as a criterion for culling is as undesirable a protocol as is using single-trait selection for Seedstock purchasing!.
Frankie will probably be surprised to hear that I agree with her almost 100%. There are many reasons for making decisions regarding culling and retaining animals, as this thread demonstrates, however the critical bottom line is this: it is IMPORTANT that you know
WHY you make the decision, and that you are satisfied with it for all of the right reasons!
DOC HARRIS
This is a very interesting and, potentially, educational thread for you this morning! As I read the posts concerning your situation, I tried to organize, in my mind, the dilemmas with which you were confronted. Let's see if these fit into some of your thinking processes:
a- Prior to his being dropped, you had HIGH hopes for his Genetic Quality because of his "high-priced' Registered dam, and because he was sired by what you considered a 'reasonably' good Angus bull! Am I right so far?
b- Upon "first blush" when viewing him as a new-born calf, he didn't come up to your anticipations which were designed for the previous nine months! There is an "old saying" that states "Anticipation Is Greater Than The Realization!"
c- If he was "a kind of average Angus calf" when he was dropped, perhaps he was a result of his sire and dam having a low BW EPD, ( somewhere around 0.0, or less?) If that is the case, and his BW was 60# or less, he was born rather easily (BONUS!), but certainly did not LOOK like a three month bull calf! So far - so good.
d- You state that "he is doing fine and growing okay". The important evidence which should be considered at this time is - is he growing satisfactorily enough, given the above factors, and have you given adequate thought regarding his Phenotype, Genotype, and Functional Traits, and relating them to his CURRENT age and Frame score.
IF you have done all of the Homework required in making the decision you have stated, and still feel that your original judgement in steering the calf is correct - fine! I don't have a problem with your decision-making protocols so long as you know WHY you make the determination to ship him this fall. But - using single-trait selection as a criterion for culling is as undesirable a protocol as is using single-trait selection for Seedstock purchasing!.
Frankie will probably be surprised to hear that I agree with her almost 100%. There are many reasons for making decisions regarding culling and retaining animals, as this thread demonstrates, however the critical bottom line is this: it is IMPORTANT that you know
WHY you make the decision, and that you are satisfied with it for all of the right reasons!
DOC HARRIS
[
IF you have done all of the Homework required in making the decision you have stated, and still feel that your original judgement in steering the calf is correct - fine! I don't have a problem with your decision-making protocols so long as you know WHY you make the determination to ship him this fall. But - using single-trait selection as a criterion for culling is as undesirable a protocol as is using single-trait selection for Seedstock purchasing!.
DOC HARRIS[/quote]
So if the single trait you culled for is that the calf looks like a POS then that is WRONG? How can that ever be wrong. Last time I looked, we were in the Cattle business, if the cattle do not look right then what are we selling. PAPER?
IF you have done all of the Homework required in making the decision you have stated, and still feel that your original judgement in steering the calf is correct - fine! I don't have a problem with your decision-making protocols so long as you know WHY you make the determination to ship him this fall. But - using single-trait selection as a criterion for culling is as undesirable a protocol as is using single-trait selection for Seedstock purchasing!.
DOC HARRIS[/quote]
So if the single trait you culled for is that the calf looks like a POS then that is WRONG? How can that ever be wrong. Last time I looked, we were in the Cattle business, if the cattle do not look right then what are we selling. PAPER?
Santas and Duhram Reds
Well-known member
3waycross":3bx72m10 said:
So if the single trait you culled for is that the calf looks like a POS then that is WRONG? How can that ever be wrong. Last time I looked, we were in the Cattle business, if the cattle do not look right then what are we selling. PAPER?[/quote]
AMEN!
Firstly, Cade I have to congratulate you on your very mature way of thinking regarding culling. You have the makings of a seedstock producer that will be an asset to your chosen breed.
The best advice I got when I started was to never sell a bull you haven't got complete peace of mind about, it has served me well and will serve you well. It is to be expected that your goals and standards might change with age and experience, but I am sure it will only be for the better.
As a sidenote, after my initial culling at weaning where structural faults are culled, poor pre-weaning performers are culled, etc, every remaining bullcalf will look like a prospect that will improve most commercial herds after being on a growthtest. It doesn't mean they all have the same merit and will all be equally good doers under more natural conditions, though. Where you set your standards will ultimately be decided by the market you target and by how big a bull market you have developed for yourself, very little sense in keeping more bulls back than you are likely to sell or risk your reputation on an iffy bull just to make one more sale.
My point is to always strive to be the best and to offer your very best to your customers to serve their needs for the best, if that means culling more strictly than your competition, then so be it, you will be rewarded for that as your reputation grows and your herd matures.
Well done, young man, just keep going at it you are on the right track. :clap:
The best advice I got when I started was to never sell a bull you haven't got complete peace of mind about, it has served me well and will serve you well. It is to be expected that your goals and standards might change with age and experience, but I am sure it will only be for the better.
As a sidenote, after my initial culling at weaning where structural faults are culled, poor pre-weaning performers are culled, etc, every remaining bullcalf will look like a prospect that will improve most commercial herds after being on a growthtest. It doesn't mean they all have the same merit and will all be equally good doers under more natural conditions, though. Where you set your standards will ultimately be decided by the market you target and by how big a bull market you have developed for yourself, very little sense in keeping more bulls back than you are likely to sell or risk your reputation on an iffy bull just to make one more sale.
My point is to always strive to be the best and to offer your very best to your customers to serve their needs for the best, if that means culling more strictly than your competition, then so be it, you will be rewarded for that as your reputation grows and your herd matures.
Well done, young man, just keep going at it you are on the right track. :clap:
cmf1
Well-known member
OK,
So I'm breeding the genetics I want to get the traits I am most concerned with and am close.
This past year I introduce the genetics with the added bonus of low birth weight.
Last year I got close with 100 pound calves.
This year I'm close with a 70 pounder.
I now have to judge just how close I really am to what I'm shooting for.
How much more time do I give this 70 pounder to show me, than I gave the 100 pounder to show me last year, noting that I inflicted an advantage for my cow, but an early disadvantage upon him with my new low BW epd.
I don't even know if this applies to the bull calf mentioned here, but DOC's post made me think about considering acceptance of the actions that we impose on the herd.
The luxury of calving ease would probably have to be a trade out on early development of the calf.
If it starts out at 20%-30% less from day 1, does he get 20%-30% more time to show me he should keep his equipment?
Just asking.
So I'm breeding the genetics I want to get the traits I am most concerned with and am close.
This past year I introduce the genetics with the added bonus of low birth weight.
Last year I got close with 100 pound calves.
This year I'm close with a 70 pounder.
I now have to judge just how close I really am to what I'm shooting for.
How much more time do I give this 70 pounder to show me, than I gave the 100 pounder to show me last year, noting that I inflicted an advantage for my cow, but an early disadvantage upon him with my new low BW epd.
I don't even know if this applies to the bull calf mentioned here, but DOC's post made me think about considering acceptance of the actions that we impose on the herd.
The luxury of calving ease would probably have to be a trade out on early development of the calf.
If it starts out at 20%-30% less from day 1, does he get 20%-30% more time to show me he should keep his equipment?
Just asking.
Not neccesarily, I don't use bulls for the sole purpose of heifer freshners, but calving ease isn't even negotiable for me, the first bull I sell that gives calving problems will be the last bull I sell to that customer.
To me there is no point in giving the bull longer than the age bracket in which you usually sell your calves. If you sell weaners you don't need a bull that will only look good at 2 1/2. If your market is for heavy fats you don't want a little butterball at 10 months, either. Its not very difficult to make a mature bull look good with enough feed.
I don't think I would let it bother me much,It's just a calf.I wonder how you looked at the situation,as I have a guess as to what kind of genetics he was from and avg. might have been what he was bred to look like.Avg. bulls make some pretty good cows sometimes.
OP
OP
blackcowz
Well-known member
Wow, some very interesting replies that can get one thinking. Thanks a bunch. Well, let me sum it up to say this. The people I sell to would breed to an Angus bull for low BW. OK, he was fine there, at 72 pounds. However, he also needs style and way more butt than what he has. So, hence, I wouldn't use him to improve anything in my herd, and he doesn't fit my market well enough to be worth keeping and feeding all winter. But thanks for the info. I will certainly use it in the future.
