Too small or just right ?

[Stocker Steve]

I'm curious as to when which weights are being used. We have mostly 1300-1400 lb cows at calving that wean 650-750 lb calves and the cows loose anywhere from 175-225 lbs from calving to weaning.

I start calving on Mothers Day. :nod: It just seems right.
Most of my culls are weighed and then sold in December or January when I wean their calves.
I shipped 8 cows this winter and they averaged 1,326#.

 

[Stocker Steve]

AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1442 lbs

Yes, yours are bigger than mine.

 

[Aaron]

AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1442 lbs

Yes, yours are bigger than mine.

My 2013 cull cows avg 1221 lbs.

 

[dun]

When talking weight without FS you don't know it is a 1100 lb cow is a really skinny 1400 or a over fat 900

 

[Aaron]

When talking weight without FS you don't know it is a 1100 lb cow is a really skinny 1400 or a over fat 900

Very true. Most of my cows are between frame 4 and 5, some of the outlier monsters are closer to 6. I aim for 45-48" at 18 months of age and maintain a BCS of 6 out of 9 year round.

 

[Stocker Steve]

My 2013 cull cows avg 1221 lbs.

Why the "big" change from 2012 ?

 

[Aaron]

My 2013 cull cows avg 1221 lbs.

Why the "big" change from 2012 ?

Had some younger cows in the group. If I take them out, as well as a monster at the other end of the spectrum, it would be 1406 lbs, on 5 to 9 year old cows.

 

[polledbull]

alot of folks that say they have 1100 lb cows , probably have 1200 lb cows , there is not alot of mature 1100 lb cows out there, and for good reason , they are to short , you will get docked on short calves more than any other thing in healthy calves. the ideal size for me is 13-1400 lb, in the end , she will bring in a good check when culled, and cull cow income is an important part of the operation. the move to moderate cow size is a mistake , dont get started believing that 1100 lb cows are alright , they will cost you at the pay window. the angus breed has gotten carried away with short bulls, 54-55 inch bulls are hurting the breed. i am constantly looking for a 59-60 inch bull with some thickness , and they are hard to find now , some breeders are breeding 4- 5 frame bulls , and they are mighty short in my opinion, keep them big , it will be alright

 

[runningr]

Based on doing the figures like dega moo did the 17 hf and 17 steers would net an additional $30k that's a lot of money left on the table, as for the added vet costs you mentioned every cow has to pull her own weight, if she doesn't bring a calf in no matter the reason she will be sold to cover the additional costs. Additionally are smaller cows typically wean 47-48% of there body weight(1100 or less) the whereas are larger cows (1300+) typically wean 43% of there body weight now that is an avg and there are outliers in both and that is taken at weaning weights of the cows and calves.
Another aspect to look at and consider is age at breeding typically the larger heifers are going to reach breeding weight/puberty at a latter date and this needs to be calculated as well saying that for easy numbers that they need to be 60% of mature body weight the 1100lb cow will breed at 660lbs verses 840lbs for the 1400lb cow @ an avg daily gain of 1.5 lbs per day its going to take the larger heifer 62 days longer to reach 60% of her mature weight. Time is money also that same time can be used avg out over the cows calving interval to optimize the chance of her delivering a calf every 365 days. We are strictly a commercial operation and that being said we've got both ends of the spectrum but since we started keeping the rule that no matter what she has to wean one every year most of the 1400lbs have left and the mature size of our cowherd has gone down.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

alot of folks that say they have 1100 lb cows , probably have 1200 lb cows , there is not alot of mature 1100 lb cows out there, and for good reason , they are to short , you will get docked on short calves more than any other thing in healthy calves. the ideal size for me is 13-1400 lb, in the end , she will bring in a good check when culled, and cull cow income is an important part of the operation. the move to moderate cow size is a mistake, dont get started believing that 1100 lb cows are alright , they will cost you at the pay window. the angus breed has gotten carried away with short bulls, 54-55 inch bulls are hurting the breed. i am constantly looking for a 59-60 inch bull with some thickness, and they are hard to find now , some breeders are breeding 4- 5 frame bulls , and they are mighty short in my opinion, keep them big , it will be alright

The key is a large volume cow on short legs that requires much less input. You can have a cow that is a frame score 4, but she weighs 1385 pounds. This cow can raise a 600+ pound calf with only grass and a mineral lick. These smaller cattle with big bodies and short legs can convert grass more efficiently and eat less of it to maintain condition. You must minimize input, (dollars in feed), and maximize pounds in meat.

 

[ANAZAZI]

The fact that a cow has short legs does not necessarily mean she is efficient. I do stay clear of big slab sided cattle, but the right shape of a cow is not a function of leg length.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I know that, but you don't get much meat at all from the legs. What I meant was that, a cow who is a slightly smaller frame with short legs in comparison to the rest of her body is more efficient than a cow who is frame score 7. They will require less feed and maintenance throughout the winter. Let me give you an example. We got our cows into the corals a full day before they were weaned. We fed 16 bred lactating cows, 17 8 month old calves, 2 dry cows, 1 bred heifer, and 4 open heifers 10 60 lbs square bales of hay per day. Our neighbor is just getting started with cattle. He has a total of five dry Brangus x Hereford cows and he fed them 4 bales of hay per day. Both groups of cows maintained their weight, but our group ate less to maintain their weight. Judging the different groups phenotypically, our cows were smaller in frame with big bodies and short legs compared the much larger Brangus x Hereford cattle. Judging off these numbers, one could conclude that a smaller frame cow with a deep body and short legs is more efficient than a much larger cow with a different phenotype.

 

[bse]

Ill try and explain what I told our extension agent when they were preaching these smaller cattle. They said cows have a certain number per hundred weight DMI it was around 1.8lbs. so a smaller cow has less intake than a big cow which means everybody has to have 1100lb cows and everybody there thinks its the gospel. When it was over I explained to him if you have 100 eleven hundred pound cows it gives you 110,000 ponds of cow, to make that same amount of pounds in 1400 lbs cows it takes 79 it will be 110,600. Assuming each cow weans a calf at 50% the 1100lbs cows will have 55,000 lbs of calf the 1400lb cows will have 55,300 lbs of calf just about the same, but 21% less cattle to vaccinate and handle, maybe 1 less bull so whats all this worth. Just the way I see it the 1400lb cow is way more efficient. I weighed mine last spring they had around 6 month old calves bred back around 4 months average weight was 1430. Whatever weight they are if there not performing its time to go.

 

[toughntender]

I agree with your last statement bse, that if your cattle aren't adapted they aren't doing you any favors. The only exception that I take with your analysis is that I am not sure a 1400 lb cow will consistently bring in a 700 lb calf. She will absolutely need extra feed most years to be able to rebreed and hold condition. I think the point that the proponents of smaller frame cattle are trying to make is that the easier keeping small frame cattle will be much more consistent in their production year in and year out. They won't need a lot of extra inputs but will bring in a calf. That's what the cattle business is supposed to be, greatest output with fewest inputs.

 

[Stocker Steve]

there is not a lot of mature 1100 lb cows out there, and for good reason , they are to short , you will get docked on short calves more than any other thing in healthy calves.

I have been using lute and AI on a put together cow herd before turning in the bulls. I try to produce bwf, and I like to experiment, so I am using several breeds of bulls each year. The combination that worked best in the sale ring this year is a Herf bull over an average wt. (exactly 1,326# ;-) ), or close to average wt., black X cow. The Herf bull put on a lot of rib and some frame on the calves. They grew and sold well.
Kit replied back and said that less than frame 2 was too small at the packer. I am not sure what frame 2 looks like, but I know tall slab sided cows are usually hard keepers. I usually cull a couple taller heifers before I start breeding.
The hard thing for me to judge is a small easy keeping old timey cow who brings in a small calf. On % she is doing OK... I have retained some of these calves in the stocker herd, and it is more than milk - - they just don't have a lot of growth. I think this kind belong in the desert. :nod:

 

[goddy]

You also have to consider the finished article you are going for. Sure I could run a few more 1100 pound cows on the same feed I use on my 1500 pounders ( shock, horror -big cows) but then I don't think those small cows are going to give me a calf I can finish on grass before their second winter at 1300+ pounds.
A quick question - does everyone on here have scales and weigh their cows at different stages of the year or are weights quoted salvage weights or guess' ?

 

[bse]

T N T not trying to argue any point on this because it could go on forever, I don't know that 1100lb cows consistently wean 550lb calves I don't have them, and it seems with mine at around 12yrs old they do drop off but I cull 10% per year so that takes care of those not doing there part no matter if there 5 or 14. If what all these university studies say is even close to the truth that they consume X amount per day per hundred weight I don't think the 1400lb cow will consume more than that number because she is bigger. Ive said it before I don't have a clue how much they eat, but metabolism I think will apply and that's where you get the easy fleshing easy doing type cattle no matter there size.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

We weigh our cows at weaning time and occasionally after calving. We weigh our bulls when we put them in with the cows, once in the spring and once in the fall.

 

[Kscattle]

Breed a 1,000 lb cow to a 1,800 lb low birth rate bull and the cow will grow a big calf.
Say a 1500 lb cow weans a calf that is 20 - 30 lbs heavier at weaning. The lighter weight calf will bring more per pound and close to the same money.

The only catch is frame size. A medium frame calf isn;t going to bring the same dollars cwt as the large frame calf. Here they want large mediums to medium large framed calf. Outside of that and you get docked. The dock is usually around a dime a pound.

Dun hit the nail right on the head here. I sold my calves at 675lbs with plenty of frame to grow into. My friend sold some 815lb calves that were small framed when compared to their bodies. Both calves brought the same money but I didn't have the feed bill that he had. His were too fleshy and short, mine were taller and looked thinner.

 

[runningr]

We weigh at weaning(fall) and at spring working with digital scales