Tips for Starting a Seedstock Herd

[ALACOWMAN]

A couple stupid questions about cow families.

How do you know what good ones are as everybody and their mom can have a proven queen or elluna. is it just based on the operation the cow family is at like Joe Blow down the road has the best proven queens?
How are new ones established?

Most of my proven came from cows that I didn't have the highest hopes for in the beginning. And holds up their end whatever their bred too..good feet, legs,udder and teat structure built to last.looks is just part of it..pretty is ,as pretty does...

 

[CattleMan1920]

In your mind what separates the good seedstock breeds from the not so good ones?

Buy the best BS filter that is on the market.

Bakewell, Leonhardt, Emulous ... just do some searching.

Just the contrary. Most known seedstock producers use constant line crosses.

You're not doing much unless you get above 15%IBC.

When an individual is proven to fit your environment or has potential to help a line. The most useful animals from that effort will be the second generation raised in your conditions as 25% influence of the outcross.

There is a difference in culling and selecting. Let the animals cull themselves and you select the functional.

Seldom if sales are the #1 priority.

Sell the non-performers to others prior to telling others that they do not work so well. Then find another great unproven bull to try to use.

Can you explain these a little more?
What is the benefit of selling line crosses vs just straight line bred stock?
Doesn't that seem like the producers that use the hot AI bulls, aren't they just trying to sell somebody elses genetics and not their own?
Why do linebred stock not sell as good as outcrossed stock, just public perception?
Why don't most seedstock guys use their own breeding?
I still am not sure when is a good time to use outside genetics, if I had animals that thrived in my environment wouldn't bringing in outside genetics increase the good and bad genes so I would just be starting over?

Why should you use bulls from other operations? Probably the most obvious answer is that if you are NOT producing the level of animal that SAV, Baldridge, Connealy, VAR and such produce, then you are probably behind them in genetics, but that can be remedied with a simple purchase of a straw of semen. With AI, I can get the best bull these operations can produce, operations with far more success than me, operations with far more branding than me, and operations with much smarter breeders than me. I virtually have bulls from all the top operations wandering my farm with AI.

This conversation is old, but following the advice of Ebenezer is like listening to someone tell you, "don't buy a smartphone, build your own from spare parts in the shed" or "don't buy a truck, when you can go to a salvage yard and build one from scratch" Yes, you may learn some things along the way doing that, but you will most likely be 100 years old before it happens.

Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Dodge make trucks, they have tons of experience building them, they have made tons of mistakes too, but they have a lot of years backing them up. Would you choose ABC truck company, founded in 2018, over a brand new truck from the four listed above if you truly needed reliability? Peterbilt and Deere aren't where they are because of sheer fluff. Of all the old tractors that I see in my county, I mean at least 30 years or older, most are John Deere, not too many other brands still starting up and working that I can see from the road.

The buyers of your seed stock will want to see names they can attach to for trust. If you seriously think you are going to start a seedstock operation using absolute no name bulls, then you may want to follow Ebenezer's plan, or even better use one of Ebenezer's line bred bulls if he would be so gracious to let you use one, or even better purchase him. I'm pretty sure the Ebenezer Plantation has a bull to spare.

When is a good time to use outside genetics? How about YESTERDAY, LAST WEEK, LAST YEAR.

I routinely use bulls from out west and up north in the Kentucky environment with ABSOLUTELY no issues whatsoever. I've been told "SAV will never work here, or what about the fescue" Blah, blah, blah. You see the SAV progeny I post, do they look like they are suffering here, I rest my case.

Would I buy a bull in Montana and drop him down in Kentucky during a month with freezing rain and tons of mud, probably not, but would I have any problem raising a bull from birth here in Kentucky that was from a Montana sire, no problem at all, they have plenty of time to adjust, and they always do.

When Ebenezer starts posting EPD information on not one, but several of his animals, and takes detailed video and photos, we can see if his breeding strategies are sound. Until then it's all theory. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

Put up the efforts of your breeding on this forum, and let CT members roast you on a spit. That's a good way to learn as well.

 

[Ebenezer]

Put up the efforts of your breeding on this forum, and let CT members roast you on a spit. That's a good way to learn as well.

Most ovens only have room for one turkey at a time. Let me know when your timer pops out. :lol:

 

[Ebenezer]

What I don't understand is using the top AI bulls on your cows to sell seedstock, shouldn't you use your own genetic lines to sell animals?

It's a mind set. Are you a breeder or a replicator? Are you a leader or a follower? Do you dare to do something different or go along with the flow? The problems of livestock breeding are more with the humans than the animals.

If somebody wanted a SAV lines why wouldn't they just go to SAV?

Yelp or just order 10 straws and go to it on the cheap side. Ever look at semen sell sites? SAV semen starts at $5/straw and goes up.

What is the benefit of selling line crosses vs just straight line bred stock?

Line crosses are like swiss cheese on a sandwich. If you lay the slices on with some thought, you can cover all holes so that the cheese is a solid cover. Line crosses blend genes so that there is less inbreeding and more chance of maximum expression of genetic potential.

Doesn't that seem like the producers that use the hot AI bulls, aren't they just trying to sell somebody elses genetics and not their own?

Coat tail effects sell a lot of livestock.

Why do linebred stock not sell as good as outcrossed stock, just public perception?

Never heard that they do not but there are so few sources that do linebreed. Ever think that the folks who do linebreed might not need to advertise as much?

Why don't most seedstock guys use their own breeding?

They perceive that someone using the same genetics somewhere else are better judges of livestock and better breeders. And never forget that there is a thrill to be had to be the highest bidder, the guy who finds the gem in the rocks, the rush of buying, ... human nature.

I still am not sure when is a good time to use outside genetics, if I had animals that thrived in my environment wouldn't bringing in outside genetics increase the good and bad genes so I would just be starting over?

Yelp. You know that "your genetics" need a boost when they need a boost. Sounds dumb but that is how it works.

A couple stupid questions about cow families.

Nothing stupid about cow families and I know that was not your point. But the identification of good cows, like AlaCattleman said, is the key to it all. Bulls are a necessity but the cows are the engine.

How do you know what good ones are as everybody and their mom can have a proven queen or elluna. is it just based on the operation the cow family is at like Joe Blow down the road has the best proven queens?

By their records and the quality of their calves to function in what you want to accomplish. Many miss the point that a line can be highly feminine (almost to the point of being frail), they can be a line that is middle of the road (more of an all purpose type cow and bull for a commercial guy) or they can be terminal in type and make good terminal type bulls and feedlot cattle. Names are just names. Function is recorded and observed.

How are new ones established?

You take a cow or cows that you like and begin to segregate them into lines. Either do son/mother, sibs to sibs, close kin to close kin and see how it goes. You might see inbred regression or you might not. You then select animals from that effort that are phenotypically what you want. You cull the duds, in other words, same as anybody would do. My estimate is that 15% of linebreeding efforts which are started will succeed. If you have a line to show problems, you just outcross and move on or you find an outside individual that can probably fix the problem, infuse that and see if it works. If you want to try a new line you either bring in a cow or a straw and make it happen and then concentrate it to whatever lever is comfortable to you.

The funny thing about the horrors of inbreeding and having your own cattle: that is the way it was done to make the breed great. Now we avoid it to make the breed great, they say. Human nature is a tough cookie and hard to chew.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Can you explain these a little more?
What is the benefit of selling line crosses vs just straight line bred stock?
Doesn't that seem like the producers that use the hot AI bulls, aren't they just trying to sell somebody elses genetics and not their own?
Why do linebred stock not sell as good as outcrossed stock, just public perception?
Why don't most seedstock guys use their own breeding?
I still am not sure when is a good time to use outside genetics, if I had animals that thrived in my environment wouldn't bringing in outside genetics increase the good and bad genes so I would just be starting over?

Why should you use bulls from other operations? Probably the most obvious answer is that if you are NOT producing the level of animal that SAV, Baldridge, Connealy, VAR and such produce, then you are probably behind them in genetics, but that can be remedied with a simple purchase of a straw of semen. With AI, I can get the best bull these operations can produce, operations with far more success than me, operations with far more branding than me, and operations with much smarter breeders than me. I virtually have bulls from all the top operations wandering my farm with AI.

This conversation is old, but following the advice of Ebenezer is like listening to someone tell you, "don't buy a smartphone, build your own from spare parts in the shed" or "don't buy a truck, when you can go to a salvage yard and build one from scratch" Yes, you may learn some things along the way doing that, but you will most likely be 100 years old before it happens.

Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Dodge make trucks, they have tons of experience building them, they have made tons of mistakes too, but they have a lot of years backing them up. Would you choose ABC truck company, founded in 2018, over a brand new truck from the four listed above if you truly needed reliability? Peterbilt and Deere aren't where they are because of sheer fluff. Of all the old tractors that I see in my county, I mean at least 30 years or older, most are John Deere, not too many other brands still starting up and working that I can see from the road.

The buyers of your seed stock will want to see names they can attach to for trust. If you seriously think you are going to start a seedstock operation using absolute no name bulls, then you may want to follow Ebenezer's plan, or even better use one of Ebenezer's line bred bulls if he would be so gracious to let you use one, or even better purchase him. I'm pretty sure the Ebenezer Plantation has a bull to spare.

When is a good time to use outside genetics? How about YESTERDAY, LAST WEEK, LAST YEAR.

I routinely use bulls from out west and up north in the Kentucky environment with ABSOLUTELY no issues whatsoever. I've been told "SAV will never work here, or what about the fescue" Blah, blah, blah. You see the SAV progeny I post, do they look like they are suffering here, I rest my case.

Would I buy a bull in Montana and drop him down in Kentucky during a month with freezing rain and tons of mud, probably not, but would I have any problem raising a bull from birth here in Kentucky that was from a Montana sire, no problem at all, they have plenty of time to adjust, and they always do.

When Ebenezer starts posting EPD information on not one, but several of his animals, and takes detailed video and photos, we can see if his breeding strategies are sound. Until then it's all theory. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

Put up the efforts of your breeding on this forum, and let CT members roast you on a spit. That's a good way to learn as well.

I've only been too Kentucky a couple times.. but the areas I was in, looked like some fantastic cattle country...you sure make it sound like a virtual cattle he!!...

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Stay away from online sales and don't be afraid to go back home with an empty trailer.

Wish I knew how many miles I have driven with an empty trailer, but the cost of fuel was less than what I would lost if I would had bought.

Some call it tire kicking, or "being a Looker not a buyer", I call it being a good manager.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I've only been too Kentucky a couple times.. but the areas I was in, looked like some fantastic cattle country...you sure make it sound like a virtual cattle he!!...

My thoughts have always been if I was going to move somewhere to raise cattle, it would be Oklahoma, Kansas, Montana, or Kentucky.
Guess I'm to have to remove Kentuck from the list. :cry2:

 

[kentuckyguy]

op:

Here's comes another breeder vs replicator thread!!

 

[CreekAngus]

I have been managing my her as a commercial herd for the last 6 years and from what I can tell uniform pens is what sells feeders, correct me if I am wrong. I have been feeding my own steers for the last 3 years, but just a few for custom beef I would like to try retaining ownership on my feeders in the near future. I'm not retired but I am on the farm all the time as I the 7th generation of farmer in my family farming the same ground, so luckily I don't have a town job to waste the best 8 hours of my day. I am not trying to sell seedstock to make a fortune, I just think it would be extremely rewarding to supply other cattlemen with cattle that helps with their operation. I'm not trying to compete with the top seedstock operations, I'm not trying to have sell with 420 bulls and 200 females and I'm not trying to have 1500 people attend a sale at my farm.

What I don't understand is using the top AI bulls on your cows to sell seedstock, shouldn't you use your own genetic lines to sell animals? If somebody wanted a SAV lines why wouldn't they just go to SAV?

Young Angus: Man you have some really good questions. Right now you have two threads going on and some of your answers for these questions can be found in the other. If this is the direction you are going, don't worry about female family lines, everyone has a Blackbird, Black Cap, Lady this, Lady that, Lady should have been culled.......Buy the females you see fit your program as you sated, it's best to have uniformity. It could take you 10 years to get there, but it's the best way to operate. Line breeding really works well if you have those specific genetic traits you want to keep moving from one generation to the next. Hereford breeders still breed this way and it's actually one of their selling points. We in the Angus like to believe we out cross everything. We don't out cross crap, there are very few forks in the breed any longer. Look at almost every cow or bull out there now, somewhere Ext is their genealogy. I'm actually leaning towards doing some line breeding, but not a full on, I'm going to use War Party 1472 and then chase his daughters with 2417. And I agree the feather in your cap is when you use one of your own produced bulls on your own cows and there is a demand for them. You have far more to offer than most of us knuckle heads, with your running commercial as well, you will always know if there's proof in your pudding.

 

[CreekAngus]

I've only been too Kentucky a couple times.. but the areas I was in, looked like some fantastic cattle country...you sure make it sound like a virtual cattle he!!...

My thoughts have always been if I was going to move somewhere to raise cattle, it would be Oklahoma, Kansas, Montana, or Kentucky.
Guess I'm to have to remove Kentuck from the list. :cry2:

My thought would be Kentucky would be the leading favorite out of those states you posted. Montana can be brutal, Kansas your cattle have to grow against the wind and in Oklahoma you're not too sure if it's ever going to rain. In Kentucky I figure you just let the cows out and let them raise themselves, we always hear about their amazing grass.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I've only been too Kentucky a couple times.. but the areas I was in, looked like some fantastic cattle country...you sure make it sound like a virtual cattle he!!...

My thoughts have always been if I was going to move somewhere to raise cattle, it would be Oklahoma, Kansas, Montana, or Kentucky.
Guess I'm to have to remove Kentuck from the list. :cry2:

Kentucky is a great place to raise cattle, a horrible place to sell them.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I've only been too Kentucky a couple times.. but the areas I was in, looked like some fantastic cattle country...you sure make it sound like a virtual cattle he!!...

My thoughts have always been if I was going to move somewhere to raise cattle, it would be Oklahoma, Kansas, Montana, or Kentucky.
Guess I'm to have to remove Kentuck from the list. :cry2:

My thought would be Kentucky would be the leading favorite out of those states you posted. Montana can be brutal, Kansas your cattle have to grow against the wind and in Oklahoma you're not too sure if it's ever going to rain. In Kentucky I figure you just let the cows out and let them raise themselves, we always hear about their amazing grass.

I still maintain that most cattle producers in Kentucky have NO CLUE what an advantage they have in raising cattle here. Yes, this past winter has been rough, but we will have a lot of grass to offset that downside.

I've been speaking with people in my county and around, and quite a few are leasing their land out to the Barber family, which in turn put cattle they originally bought from these people at a steep discount out to graze and ultimately prepare to head out west to market.

It seems like a situation where you lose your home to foreclosure, the bank or an investor buys it back at pennies on the dollar, then leases it back to you for a premium. It's great business for the bank or investor, a losing situation for you.

Land is valuable, even in Kentucky, why not have your own cattle? Why raise someone else's cattle for a few pennies?

Nothing against the Barbers AT ALL, they have the game figured out and are making bank because of it. The land owners, not so much.

A lot of people have just given up and thrown in the towel on cattle around here that have nice farms, it's easier to let the pros take over.

 

[slick4591]

Stay away from online sales and don't be afraid to go back home with an empty trailer.

Wish I knew how many miles I have driven with an empty trailer, but the cost of fuel was less than what I would lost if I would had bought.

Some call it tire kicking, or "being a Looker not a buyer", I call it being a good manager.

I agree as I wrote that with personal experience. I thought I asked all the right questions of the breeder from an online sale a couple years ago and ended up with a girl with less than desirable front feet, so basically she'll raise terminal calves for me until someone comes along that wants her worse than I do. Went to Mississippi for another and knew when I saw her she wasn't exactly what I wanted, but loaded her anyway. Although, that deal worked out as it was little over a year that I made a good chunk off her and some of her calves. Just got lucky, I think.

 

[YoungAngusCattle]

I have been managing my her as a commercial herd for the last 6 years and from what I can tell uniform pens is what sells feeders, correct me if I am wrong. I have been feeding my own steers for the last 3 years, but just a few for custom beef I would like to try retaining ownership on my feeders in the near future. I'm not retired but I am on the farm all the time as I the 7th generation of farmer in my family farming the same ground, so luckily I don't have a town job to waste the best 8 hours of my day. I am not trying to sell seedstock to make a fortune, I just think it would be extremely rewarding to supply other cattlemen with cattle that helps with their operation. I'm not trying to compete with the top seedstock operations, I'm not trying to have sell with 420 bulls and 200 females and I'm not trying to have 1500 people attend a sale at my farm.

What I don't understand is using the top AI bulls on your cows to sell seedstock, shouldn't you use your own genetic lines to sell animals? If somebody wanted a SAV lines why wouldn't they just go to SAV?

Young Angus: Man you have some really good questions. Right now you have two threads going on and some of your answers for these questions can be found in the other. If this is the direction you are going, don't worry about female family lines, everyone has a Blackbird, Black Cap, Lady this, Lady that, Lady should have been culled.......Buy the females you see fit your program as you sated, it's best to have uniformity. It could take you 10 years to get there, but it's the best way to operate. Line breeding really works well if you have those specific genetic traits you want to keep moving from one generation to the next. Hereford breeders still breed this way and it's actually one of their selling points. We in the Angus like to believe we out cross everything. We don't out cross crap, there are very few forks in the breed any longer. Look at almost every cow or bull out there now, somewhere Ext is their genealogy. I'm actually leaning towards doing some line breeding, but not a full on, I'm going to use War Party 1472 and then chase his daughters with 2417. And I agree the feather in your cap is when you use one of your own produced bulls on your own cows and there is a demand for them. You have far more to offer than most of us knuckle heads, with your running commercial as well, you will always know if there's proof in your pudding.

How do you decide to do that? Because other people have succeeded in your area doing that? You have seen animals in sales that you like come from that breed?

I would actually say you "knuckle heads" are far ahead of me. I'm a commercial cattleman that wants to sell seedstock, not an easy thing to break into. My grandfather was like one of the buyer Branded describes, he just wanted a cheap bull to put calves on the ground. So I did learn a lot of great things from him, but the genetics of cattle was not one of them.

 

[CreekAngus]

I have been managing my her as a commercial herd for the last 6 years and from what I can tell uniform pens is what sells feeders, correct me if I am wrong. I have been feeding my own steers for the last 3 years, but just a few for custom beef I would like to try retaining ownership on my feeders in the near future. I'm not retired but I am on the farm all the time as I the 7th generation of farmer in my family farming the same ground, so luckily I don't have a town job to waste the best 8 hours of my day. I am not trying to sell seedstock to make a fortune, I just think it would be extremely rewarding to supply other cattlemen with cattle that helps with their operation. I'm not trying to compete with the top seedstock operations, I'm not trying to have sell with 420 bulls and 200 females and I'm not trying to have 1500 people attend a sale at my farm.

What I don't understand is using the top AI bulls on your cows to sell seedstock, shouldn't you use your own genetic lines to sell animals? If somebody wanted a SAV lines why wouldn't they just go to SAV?

Young Angus: Man you have some really good questions. Right now you have two threads going on and some of your answers for these questions can be found in the other. If this is the direction you are going, don't worry about female family lines, everyone has a Blackbird, Black Cap, Lady this, Lady that, Lady should have been culled.......Buy the females you see fit your program as you sated, it's best to have uniformity. It could take you 10 years to get there, but it's the best way to operate. Line breeding really works well if you have those specific genetic traits you want to keep moving from one generation to the next. Hereford breeders still breed this way and it's actually one of their selling points. We in the Angus like to believe we out cross everything. We don't out cross crap, there are very few forks in the breed any longer. Look at almost every cow or bull out there now, somewhere Ext is their genealogy. I'm actually leaning towards doing some line breeding, but not a full on, I'm going to use War Party 1472 and then chase his daughters with 2417. And I agree the feather in your cap is when you use one of your own produced bulls on your own cows and there is a demand for them. You have far more to offer than most of us knuckle heads, with your running commercial as well, you will always know if there's proof in your pudding.

How do you decide to do that? Because other people have succeeded in your area doing that? You have seen animals in sales that you like come from that breed?

I would actually say you "knuckle heads" are far ahead of me. I'm a commercial cattleman that wants to sell seedstock, not an easy thing to break into. My grandfather was like one of the buyer Branded describes, he just wanted a cheap bull to put calves on the ground. So I did learn a lot of great things from him, but the genetics of cattle was not one of them.

I didn't learn anything from my Dad about genetics. I learned that from a guy who raises the kind of cattle I want to raise. So I bought my first set of registered from him and when I reincarnated last year, I bought my next set of starters from him. With the cattle came the access to him. We are friendly and I ask him a lot of questions and mimick the things I like and go my own way on things I want to differ on. Like you I'm early in the process (again) but I do have a direction. I have a neighbor whose Dad was a legend in my area, always had outlier angus and that is the direction I want to go. I know the look I want, the frame size and performance I'm seeking. From my Dad I learned how to raise cattle, how to and more importantly how not to feed. One thing I will give my Old Man kudos for he raised uniformity and got a premium for it. Your buyers should always know what to expect, easiest way to kill retail is to change the ingredients (Coke).

 

[YoungAngusCattle]

A couple more questions I was thinking about today. There's gonna be a lot of what ifs in this so bare with me.

In a scenario that is hypothetical, Let's say I have too equally sized pastures. In pasture A I have my new bull, let's call him Tom, and the heifers I get from Tom go to pasture B to be breed to a bull, called Lucky, that has no common ancestors with Tom. Then I take the heifers that I get out of the Tom X Lucky breeding and put them back into pasture A to be bred with Tom, their grandsire.

In a perfect world you are culling everything that isn't the best of the best and by the time the bull is breeding his grand daughters it has been four or five years so you are probably think about bulls in a few years.

From what I understand that isn't enough line breeding to really solidify the genetics in those cattle made from the grand sire to grand daughter mating, is that correct?

Say these grand sire to grand daughter females are top shelf females. Do you breed them back to Tom, their sire, to solidify the genes that made these females great? Do you put them back in pasture B, with Lucky, to just keep repeating the cycle till it's time for new bulls? Or do you AI them to proven bull, further increasing your available gene pool?

This whole thing made more sense in my head.

Then what do when it's time for new bulls? Go buy bulls from another top seed stock operation? AI some of the Tom X Lucky X Tom cows with a proven AI bull hoping for a couple new herd bulls that fit your goals as an operation? Keep back some really top notched Tom X Lucky X Tom bull and then have a clusterf*ck of a line breeding that I can't even begin to try to understand right now?

I may be overthink this seed stock thing a little much, but I just have to get a rough idea of the plan that needs to be in place. Needless to say I think about cows more than I'd care to admit to you guys right now.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

There is a top and bottom of the pedigree to think about. Sires and dams got to look at both. You can always look back and bring in sire and grandsires that made the line.

 

[Ebenezer]

In pasture A I have my new bull, let's call him Tom, and the heifers I get from Tom go to pasture B to be breed to a bull, called Lucky, that has no common ancestors with Tom. Then I take the heifers that I get out of the Tom X Lucky breeding and put them back into pasture A to be bred with Tom, their grandsire.

In a perfect world you are culling everything that isn't the best of the best and by the time the bull is breeding his grand daughters it has been four or five years so you are probably think about bulls in a few years.

From what I understand that isn't enough line breeding to really solidify the genetics in those cattle made from the grand sire to grand daughter mating, is that correct?

I think that would put you at 12.5% which is more than a lot of cattle.

Say these grand sire to grand daughter females are top shelf females. Do you breed them back to Tom, their sire, to solidify the genes that made these females great? Do you put them back in pasture B, with Lucky, to just keep repeating the cycle till it's time for new bulls? Or do you AI them to proven bull, further increasing your available gene pool?

You have to have a purpose for the animals before you try to tighten them up. Are Tom and Lucky very similar in type or do you see them correcting each other? Want to sell calves to other folks, then outcross is a good deal. You ought to have some male sibs to the heifers and cows that you could consider if you want to expand your base.

This whole thing made more sense in my head.

Trying to guess is hard. Tom and/or Lucky might not work at all and there you go.

Then what do when it's time for new bulls? Go buy bulls from another top seed stock operation? AI some of the Tom X Lucky X Tom cows with a proven AI bull hoping for a couple new herd bulls that fit your goals as an operation? Keep back some really top notched Tom X Lucky X Tom bull and then have a line breeding that I can't even begin to try to understand right now?

Purpose? Do you see problems? Do you want to fix something? Do you want to start another line from the new bull?... I mean this in a nice way: I sense that you are thinking too far ahead of where you are.

 

[Nesikep]

Here's a long thread on linebreeding. https://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=106998

I breed what looks good to my eye, some people like what I like, some don't..

Despite that I have a really small sample size, the trend I'm seeing is it doesn't matter how many times an animal is in the family tree of the offspring, but the best animals don't have more than 50% influence from any parent.. thus, sibling/cousin matings work well, father/daughter, mother/son matings just haven't worked that great for me..


As for what stock to get, it's gotta be fully functional first and foremost.. Much harder to breed bad traits OUT of a herd than good ones INTO it... Average size calves from mommas that produce trouble free for 10-15 years is better than whoppers from cows that fall apart at 8 years old and come up open, lame, or want to kill you.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

This comment is from Morgan Hartman on a similar discussion on FaceBook:

I was doing a search yesterday on the history of Line 1 Herefords. Came across a handful of papers by Dr. MacNeil, geneticist at Miles City ARS Research Center in MT.
The reason, in my opinion, more seedstock producers don't work as actual breeders is two fold:
1) There are tremendous economic disincentives perpetuated by very large corporations to overvalue whatever fad they create in the show ring or even on the hook. Constant change is what those companies make money on. Tried and true has no margin for them.
2) There is a tremendous difference between a producer and a breeder. Being a breeder takes imagination, discipline, humility, perseverance, and a willingness to fail/learn/try again, often at low likelihood of "striking gold" in terms of popularity in the market place. For most would be seedstock producers it isn't enough to simply make a living doing what they're passionate about, it's more of a pyramid scheme set up by Genex, Select, ABS, etc etc and the breed associations.
Politics and money are what are in the way of more folks being breeders. That and a general lack of passion, discipline, and intellect required to be an actual breeder. True breeders are leaders. Most producers are followers. Then again, that is the human condition. Innovators of any kind are rare. Copiers/proliferators are common.