Theoretical question: fert vs feed

[bigbull338]

if i had to choose where to spend my money on feed or fert,id choose feed.i did the figures on mixing 100lbs of wheat with 200lbs of fert on 50acs.an i decided real quick where the money would be best spent on feed.the total cost was $4300 or $43 an ac.well that would buy 15 tons of feed,wich would feed 105 days.

100lbs ammonium nitrate would have done the trick.

How many cows are you talking 15 tons 105 days?

right it would prolly be 50 cows an heifers.as weve been selling the calves off an culling some old prob cows.with the drought we are in its very risky putting $600 a ton fert out when it prolly wouldnt rain an youd loose it.feeding 300lbs of feed a day would cost roughly $60 day when fed.an right now they are still grazing an eating no hay or feed.buying the hay would cost $100 a day.so even buying feed im saving money.an with planting 50acs of wheat even if it did get a good stand it would be burnt up by may.

 

[Sean M]

Short answer - I simply don't have the experience with the fertiliser/seed input side of things to know yet, as that is usually the farm owner's responsibility and this is the first year I've made the fertiliser decisions (it's still his responsibility but we won't go there).

I figure my most cost effective way forward on this farm is seed and fertiliser rather than buying in feed.
That said. I'm a) in an excellent grass growing climate (so can expect good responses); b)dealing with low fertility; run out pastures (so can expect good responses); and c) very restricted in the feed I can economically buy in due to local prices and the farm's organic status.

In the meantime, I have had to buy in more than twice the amount of feed I budgeted for to keep the stocking rate high enough to maintain a viable business. So to start with the feed cost is going to be there anyway.

Can you only use rock phosphate Reg? I'd imagine chicken litter etc would have to come from an organic farm. And how do you control worms?

I opted to use chicken litter and lime, on the flat/dry portion of the farm that I can't irrigate with the dairy shed effluent. The chicken litter is certified organic.
RPR (reactive rock phosphate) is what I was recommended to use and I was informed by about three or four independent people that it would take 2 - 3 years to show a response. I don't have that sort of time and money.
There's a few other alternatives on the market - viaphos is guano based. I tried a volcanic rock/mineral/fishmeal blend on a few hectares and so far not very impressed by the results.
If you mean stomach worms (can't imagine you'd be worried about increasing numbers of earthworms), then I drench just like everyone else does. I'm not supplying organic product from the farm and the certifier told me that I could drench without quarantining the stock for that reason. If I was converting the herd to supply organic milk then any treated animal would have to be held in a quarantine paddock.

I looked into organic beef a few years ago and decided it was too much trouble. The fertilisers you can use aren't very effective and expensive if you have to buy organic chicken litter or dairy waste I'd imagine, the fees were around $6000 a year, you had to wait 3 years for full certification, couldn't use wormers so you had to move the cattle every day and run chickens over the paddocks and you had to exclude animals you used antibiotics on. The whole thing sounded like too much work. I could only imagine how expensive it would be to buy in feed during a drought as well. Coles and Woolies do a lot of organic beef but of course they own stations in the back of beyond were they just let them loose for most of the year, and they certify themselves because the run a couple of certifying bodies. Have you thought about going organic if you're already on an organic farm?

 

[Sean M]

Actually while I'm at it there was an organic 'fertiliser' called Petrik which you might want to look in it. It works in a similar way to worm teas in that it promotes microbial activity which breaks down humus. I've seen studies on it and it seems to work but I can't really vouch for it.

http://www.totalgs.com.au/petrik/petrik-overview.aspx

 

[regolith]

I forgot about the microbe tea fertilisers - haven't seriously looked at any. And some people just use lime and trace minerals.

Have you thought about going organic if you're already on an organic farm?

I looked into it and discovered that converting the herd is a one-off deal - if the herd is moved off organic pasture they lose their status and can't ever be certified organic again. My herd will certainly be back on conventional pasture sooner or later, and I did want to keep that option open for the future.
I'm also seeing significantly more animal health problems here than I'm accustomed to, and have next to no faith in the 'alternatives' to antibiotics.

 

[Sean M]

I forgot about the microbe tea fertilisers - haven't seriously looked at any. And some people just use lime and trace minerals.

Have you thought about going organic if you're already on an organic farm?

I looked into it and discovered that converting the herd is a one-off deal - if the herd is moved off organic pasture they lose their status and can't ever be certified organic again. My herd will certainly be back on conventional pasture sooner or later, and I did want to keep that option open for the future.
I'm also seeing significantly more animal health problems here than I'm accustomed to, and have next to no faith in the 'alternatives' to antibiotics.

I didn't realise you couldn't move them off organic and not back. I guess it makes sense, they are very strict. Without wormers and antibiotics that would make it very difficult to manage cattle properly. I was actually thinking about using some Petrik but the studies were done in conjunction with super so it isn't just for organic farming. Fairly expensive though at around $43/ha and I don't know how longlasting it is.

 

[regolith]

gibberellic acid.
It's cheap, creates feed fast.
Just came to mind while debating feed v fert, to me it's the complete opposite of the organic philosophy but I know a fert rep who says his company is working on getting a certified product comprising gibberellic acid and liquid fertiliser.
I saw it used in the area I was farming last year, don't know if you have it in the US. It's only been commercially available maybe two or three years.

 

[regolith]

I didn't realise you couldn't move them off organic and not back. I guess it makes sense, they are very strict. Without wormers and antibiotics that would make it very difficult to manage cattle properly. I was actually thinking about using some Petrik but the studies were done in conjunction with super so it isn't just for organic farming. Fairly expensive though at around $43/ha and I don't know how longlasting it is.

Sean, if you try it let us know how it goes
Long-lasting I think comes down to management. Now there's a tricky one, especially if it's being used alongside superphosphate. I think of it like adding a spoonful of yoghurt to your milk - you can do that indefinitely, till you let it get too hot, too cold or whatever it is that the mix just doesn't work and you have to start again. The microbe fertiliser is the 'seed' and it should take off from there.
Which makes me wonder why organic farmers need a product like that in the first place... but I hear the results are proven. And this farm, it's not humming along yet, not enough worms to recycle the manure and dead plant material, and yet it's been organic for better than a decade. If I saw those dungpats disappearing within four - five weeks I'd be less worried about lack of fertility.

Check out agmantoo's posts for an organic approach to recycling fertility. He might be able to weigh in on this topic if he's reading ;-)

 

[Sean M]

It is strange isn't it, I would have thought with a worm farm going you could get the same sort of results. I thought about a worm farm as well with grass clippings from the local lawnmower businesses but the council does that apparently and doesn't charge them to dump it. Plus too much work and it would cost a bit to set up. I'm a bit lazy for this really . Anyway with the recycling on farm to me it doesn't sound like it would work without off farm inputs, given that we're exporting 25-30 tons of cattle a year. It would be hard to keep up with that using just organic ferts.

Anyway with the Petrik I don't really know what is in it but it is supposed to increase worm populations as well as breaking down humus, but they recommend applying it every year so I don't know if that's true or not :? . And it is organic certified here. Anyway there is around 20 acres in one of Dad's paddocks that is looking in need of something so I'll probably end up paying for some of this stuff to see how it goes. I'm in Oz btw.

 

[novatech]

If you already have cattle, then of course you have to feed them. By your statement you indicate you may not, theoretically.
That being the case saying that fertilizer is short lived is wrong. Cattle, only remove, so I've read, 20% of the soil nutrition per year.
It has been said on these boards many times over "You are a grass farmer first". I agree wholeheartedly. So get your ducks in a row. First formulate a plan of the pasture you want. I like to have sustainable pastures as much as possible. With a sustainable system you eliminate most of the future addition of fertilizer. Clover is a must. There is a lot of info. available if you do a search on the Internet. Then you should do a soil test. On the soil test form, in Texas we have to say what type of grass is there or being planted. Phosphorous is especially important for new planting, seeded or sprigged. The rest of you infrastructure is next. Decide on your grazing system and install your cross fencing. Make sure your working facilities are in order. Knowledge will be your most important asset. Learn how grass grows. Learn how fertilizer works to feed the grass. Learn to not have to feed any more than absolutely necessary. After you have done all this. Then and only then are you ready to put cattle on. What cattle you put on is a whole new subject and educational process.
I found a couple of links to how fertilize (P&K) works that, after reading some of the replies on here, even some of the experienced folks should read.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... C6795.html
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... c6794.html
A couple of brief articles with some basics;
http://www.exnet.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1791.pdf
http://www.2farm.co.nz/pasture-farming.html

 

[Stocker Steve]

Great links Novatech. I have a better idea on how the soil feeds the plant over the long haul.

Any insight on the hard core mob grazers who think chemical fertilizer is a rip off? Seems like they think you can jack up the biology of the soil to the point it can totally feed the plant???

 

[novatech]

My way of thinking is that if your to high in P & K then it might work. Nitrogen is replaced with the clover. If your selling anything off the land it is taken nutrients with it. Sooner or later you gotta put it back. I have read that some soils, clays in particular, have a lot of the P and K. The problem is that it is locked up and not made available to the plant. Plowing will help the release of K . I either forgot how to get the P out or never new so need to look it up.
I have read in no till programs for crops that planting deep rooted plants will bring up nutrients previously unavailable.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Might be high in P & K - - but is it available to plants?

Seems like the key is either adding a lot of manure. or litter, to increase soil life and hold more moisture.
Then I am assuming all this additional soil life converts (more) unavailable minerals to available...

 

[Anonymous]

I thought there would be a few different schools of thought hence the question. I just got to wondering. Keep the the insights coming

 

[BC]

Great links Novatech. I have a better idea on how the soil feeds the plant over the long haul.

Any insight on the hard core mob grazers who think chemical fertilizer is a rip off? Seems like they think you can jack up the biology of the soil to the point it can totally feed the plant???

Was neighbor to a dairy that used MIG and observed several others here in Van Zandt County. Our soils are very sandy and low inheretent fertility. Most had to add N-P-K for several years until they got their P & K levels up. Now they just use N to get the growth they need as the P & K are pretty much recycled. Most use coastal or Tifton 85 bermuda and overseed that with rye and ryegrass. I asked why they didn't use clovers and the dairymen said they did not get enough growth and reseeding was a problem.

 

[novatech]

I thought there would be a few different schools of thought hence the question. I just got to wondering. Keep the the insights coming

If you think about it for a minute the answer is just common sense. If you grow feed yourself no matter what the feed, grass ,corn, hay, etc., you cut out the middleman. The producers of feed have all the same expenses of production,(which will be include in the cost to you) but then you must pay for their overhead, shipping, and profit.
There is another important thing that you have to understand and is the reason that some find it expensive to fertilize. Most crop farmers today have a very good understanding of soil and plant system and therefore can raise these crops more efficiently than some cattlemen can grow grass. Crop farmers have a very good understanding of inputs and outputs concerning fertilizer. Cattlemen seem to focus more on there cattle. Cattle are nothing more than the machines that take grass or feed and inevitably turn it into cash. Therefore we have the adage "We are grass farmers first." So learning about how to grow grass, our raw product, more efficiently will cut our costs and give us more volume to feed the machines.
So then the question arises, so how does a feed lot make money? They make money by controlling their cost of feed, contract purchases and volume purchasing. They also have a very good understanding of how the rumen system works and the nutritional requirements of cattle. They know what cattle to purchase for their market. They increase the value of the animal and profit from it.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Any insight on the hard core mob grazers who think chemical fertilizer is a rip off? Seems like they think you can jack up the biology of the soil to the point it can totally feed the plant???

Was neighbor to a dairy that used MIG and observed several others here in Van Zandt County. Our soils are very sandy and low inheretent fertility. Most had to add N-P-K for several years until they got their P & K levels up. Now they just use N to get the growth they need as the P & K are pretty much recycled. quote]

I thought I had gotten my P&K up but I was wrong. I know part of the problem was I was not soil sampling deep enough the first couple years - - and overstanding the effect my inputs. I know part of it is half my paddocks have shade available so you know where a lot of **** happens. I think part of it is available nutrients becoming unavailable...Kind of discouraging competing with the corn farmers for inputs unless you can make the nutrient re cycling work. Price of poultry litter has gone thorugh the roof here but I am going back to it in select situations.

My Dad told me back in the day when they first recommending liming our acid soils some folks were told that they only had to do it once. There have been alot of inputs applied since then...

 

[James T]

I thought there would be a few different schools of thought hence the question. I just got to wondering. Keep the the insights coming

If you think about it for a minute the answer is just common sense. If you grow feed yourself no matter what the feed, grass ,corn, hay, etc., you cut out the middleman. The producers of feed have all the same expenses of production,(which will be include in the cost to you) but then you must pay for their overhead, shipping, and profit.
There is another important thing that you have to understand and is the reason that some find it expensive to fertilize. Most crop farmers today have a very good understanding of soil and plant system and therefore can raise these crops more efficiently than some cattlemen can grow grass. Crop farmers have a very good understanding of inputs and outputs concerning fertilizer. Cattlemen seem to focus more on there cattle. Cattle are nothing more than the machines that take grass or feed and inevitably turn it into cash. Therefore we have the adage "We are grass farmers first." So learning about how to grow grass, our raw product, more efficiently will cut our costs and give us more volume to feed the machines.
So then the question arises, so how does a feed lot make money? They make money by controlling their cost of feed, contract purchases and volume purchasing. They also have a very good understanding of how the rumen system works and the nutritional requirements of cattle. They know what cattle to purchase for their market. They increase the value of the animal and profit from it.

You missed a point. The average cattleman forgets about grass. There are crop farmers who have "the " understanding and then there are the heard raisers that screw up when it come to feeding with pasture grass. They don't sometimes get it. No fetilization, but yet grazing the same old heard against the same old dirt, never puttin anything back. If your number of stock take out 20% of the pasture nutrients is correct, then what is a pasture worth after 5 years of such treatment? 0! Zero. Nada! Nothing is really free. But, with good management, you can get it all cheaper!

 

[novatech]

The average cattleman forgets about grass.

Cattlemen seem to focus more on there cattle. quote]

Semantics

 

[Caustic Burno]

James is right you are a grass farmer first. Good grass equal's good health, teeth, longevity all put money in your pocket. There is no free ride it is not just fertilize it is soil sampling controlling ph with lime to maximize fertilize efficiency along with weed control. The grass may look greener on the other side you can bet the water or the fertilizer bill is higher.