The best bull to create replacement females.

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Tbrake":2prvkqlr said:
My spring calves are always 10-15 pounds bigger, Sometimes more. (Springs are born jan/ feb, falls aug/sept/oct). Some of the same bulls, and very similar cows. I have heard this from some old timer neighbors several times, but I'm finding it to be very true for me.
I only explanation I have heard is the cold weather causes the cow to pump more blood, causing more nutrients going to the calf. True or not, I have no idea. Last winter was the coldest I remember, and I had some big calves. Averages close to 100lbs. Having calves now, some out of the same bull been averaging 75 lbs.
talking to the county agent recently told me nutrition in the last trimester has very little to do with calf size.
I graze a lot of wheat and turnips in the winter and used to pull the cows off about a month before calving. I had bigger than avrage calves last year, but so did the cows who where on decent hay and 3lbs of grain. Looking back though my records, the cows on wheat had calves 2-3 lbs bigger. Decent sample size 75 births on wheat/ turnips 119 births on stockpiled fescue/ hay/ 3lbs grain.
Only 35 fall cows due, I will record their bw.

I'm not the only one who had large spring calves, I've talked to people all over who are saying the same thing. General theory has been the abnormally cold winter over most of the country.

Thank you. That indicates it is temperature related. I have a high average birth weight. Approximately, 86 pounds. I am totally fall calving. My cows calve September/October. I sure don't need another 10 pounds per calf. Convincing argument for staying with fall calving. Thanks.
 
Ebenezer":2gve65ft said:
A son of the best suited cow in your herd.
Do you consider how closely related the bull is to the majority of your herd? And I assume the bull also breeds his mother?

If you had a very small herd all descendents of one cow would you still use a bull from that line?
 
ez14.":35zwuupp said:
Ebenezer":35zwuupp said:
A son of the best suited cow in your herd.
Do you consider how closely related the bull is to the majority of your herd? And I assume the bull also breeds his mother?

If you had a very small herd all descendents of one cow would you still use a bull from that line?
Have built a line and it includes mother/son matings and you cannot pick them out. Have a mother/son calf to wean this time and will use him to enforce the mother's influence. He's right there with the rest and you will not pick him out as different. Set up another one this breeding. The lines are all based on cattle from a common decedent or two in the herd. You can cull regressed animals just like you cull the duds from normal outcross breeding.
 
BC":lzaw47h7 said:
Hornfrogbbq, you have not told us what part of the country these cattle will be located. Having environmentally adapted cattle is the most important factor. The cow has to be able to raise a big healthy calf and get rebred on the available forage.

That said, in my part of the world if I was specifically trying to raise replacement females, I would use the thickest made, cleanest sheathed Santa Gertrudis, Brangus or Beefmaster bull I could afford. The steer calves may not top the market but their sisters will more than make up the difference.

What BC said, although I'd focus on Brangus, and add "deep-bodied" to the description.
 
Rafter S":1bi4fczu said:
BC":1bi4fczu said:
Hornfrogbbq, you have not told us what part of the country these cattle will be located. Having environmentally adapted cattle is the most important factor. The cow has to be able to raise a big healthy calf and get rebred on the available forage.

That said, in my part of the world if I was specifically trying to raise replacement females, I would use the thickest made, cleanest sheathed Santa Gertrudis, Brangus or Beefmaster bull I could afford. The steer calves may not top the market but their sisters will more than make up the difference.

What BC said, although I'd focus on Brangus, and add "deep-bodied" to the description.
I try not to breed pimp and prefer red or yellow cattle.
 
BC":tvqrp614 said:
Rafter S":tvqrp614 said:
BC":tvqrp614 said:
Hornfrogbbq, you have not told us what part of the country these cattle will be located. Having environmentally adapted cattle is the most important factor. The cow has to be able to raise a big healthy calf and get rebred on the available forage.

That said, in my part of the world if I was specifically trying to raise replacement females, I would use the thickest made, cleanest sheathed Santa Gertrudis, Brangus or Beefmaster bull I could afford. The steer calves may not top the market but their sisters will more than make up the difference.

What BC said, although I'd focus on Brangus, and add "deep-bodied" to the description.
I try not to breed pimp and prefer red or yellow cattle.

Fair enough. By the way, I'm not in the seedstock business, so I guess pushing Brangus works against me because if everyone liked them I couldn't afford to buy the bulls. And I have nothing against Beefmasters or Gerts.
 
jdg said:
Ebenezer said:
A son of the best suited cow in your herd.

Once you've spend enough seasons doing the hard work of making your cows fit your environment, applying the right amount of culling pressure, Ebenezer is right. No better way to improve your cow herd than letting nature do the work. This takes time. A great breeder (I do not use this term lightly) Ed Oliver once told me, "There are no shortcuts." I had told him about a partnership i was starting utilizing embryos from a 50 year deep forage development program, that had been applying a lot of fertility pressure without supplements. I didn't understand why he couldn't see the wisdom of piggybacking off the line breeding success of another seedstock producer who'd been applying the types of selection criteria I wanted to apply. Now, if my partnership would have been with my neighbor, Ed might have been wrong. But he wasn't, and I wasn't totally wrong either. You can make progress utilizing the genetics of other programs, but you must use a lot of due diligence to select the right program. Visit their ranch, ask the right questions, see their cattle, look at their forage base and supplemental feeding regimens, and consider climate. Does it look like your operation? Do their goals match yours? Eventually though, you can make better replacements for your farm than they can. I would say that you can help yourself with AI and ET work, but eventually, to make true progress in trying to improve your herd, you must select from within.

Hybrid vigor is a real thing. Every successful commercial cattlemen on this forum will probably agree. Be careful not to create a mongrelized herd if a consistent calf crop is your goal. With a breeding plan, you can accomplish this easily.

We were tasked with choosing an AI bull strictly for daughters. Most of the angus bulls people have listed I believe are the best cow makers from terminal bull programs. If you have the resources to feed these girls (great grass or supplements), they might make great cows. I do not have great grass as a base here in south georgia, so I have used bloodlines that do not support that much production. Be wary of numbers, they are only as good as the folks who have recorded them, and management has a way of propping them up.

A few of the black angus breeders I believe who are making good progress in their respective regions (just a few...proably 50 more i haven't been to) breeding maternal cattle are:
Diamond D Angus, MT
Cotton Angus, SD (Hyland Angus is right down the road and similar bred)
Octoraro, PA
Kinloch Farms, VA
Oliver Family Angus, GA
Hague Angus Ranch, NE
Sprenger Cattle Co., NE
JAD angus, NE

And of course the historic Wye Angus Plantation, MD. Over 50 years of line breeding for maternal characteristics. Definitely some inbreeding depression in my opinion, but crossed to other angus or other breeds, a heterosis pop.

Pinebank Angus, NZ. Also over 50 years of line breeding for forage performance with extreme fertility pressure. Pinebank and Wye cross well together, complimenting each other. Most of the programs listed above have utilized at least one of these historic programs to strengthen their programs. The Pinebank cattle, like many of the Ohlde cattle, are extremely efficient converters of forages into meat and milk. This is a plus in low energy environments.

Ohlde is probably the crossover maternal breeder, that has placed more cow makers in terminal seedstock operations over the years. He has bred some very good maternal cattle. But do your research, some are not. Feet, fertility, temperament, and adult size can all be issues in his cattle in low to moderate input systems.

Bradley 3 ranch in Texas has the only mainstream black angus program i've seen that is as ruthless culling for fertility as Pinebank. They make zero excuses for their cattle, and do a great job developing their bulls. I would personally only use pedigrees that feature their cattle, and not the AI sires they use to increase their EPDs and attract a wider audience. Those AI daughters have never made it the decade it takes to get into their flush program. I trust people who don't flush cows until they made it over 10 years under their management.

I've sampled enough from these programs that i'm done using AI and am large enough to source my black angus bulls internally now. If for whatever reason AI is still necessary, I'd consider researching a few of the herds i mentioned that our most similar to your environment, and talk with the breeders to get their recommendations. If they are good listeners, they usually can pick a better selection from their herd than we can.

Okay, I'm gonna put the coffee down.

good luck.

So I am revisiting this post...i had completely forgotten about it. This response and the detail you put i to it has all proven true. We have discussions with Mark and Diamond D and we have Bradley 3 genetics already.

Just a quick "thank you" again for a wonderful sharing of info.
 

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