Spring 07 Murray Grey Bull & Heifer

[OK Jeanne]

Here's a bull calf:

And here's a heifer:

Any opinions?? :?:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Here's a bull calf:

And here's a heifer:

Any opinions?? :?:

OK-
]
Both fine looking, better-than-average beef cattle. The bull(IN THIS PICTURE) stands too close in the rear. Can't see his feet or pasterns. Terrific bull head! Needs more efficient fly control.

Heifer should have very little trouble with calving. Same comment about flies.

DOC HARRIS

 

[tuck]

If that's bad fly control then I must be really terrible.

 

[Putangitangi]

So nice to see animals about which one could say so little in the negative! What age are they, Jeanne?

What problems do the flies cause, other than annoyance?

 

[KNERSIE]

Here's a bull calf:

And here's a heifer:

Any opinions?? :?:

OK-
]
Both fine looking, better-than-average beef cattle. The bull(IN THIS PICTURE) stands too close in the rear. Can't see his feet or pasterns. Terrific bull head! Needs more efficient fly control.

Heifer should have very little trouble with calving. Same comment about flies.

DOC HARRIS

Doc,
Not wanting to be argumentative, but I think you might read too much in the bull's photo. Sometimes they just stand awkward or are on the point of moving and that often creates the illusion that they stand too close, etc.

I have too agree that both have outstanding heads

 

[OK Jeanne]

So nice to see animals about which one could say so little in the negative! What age are they, Jeanne?

Bull calf tag BB: DOB 3-23-07... Birthweight 68 lbs; weaned 9/30/07; weight 529 lbs; average daily gain of 2.41 lbs.... Dam is OK Bonnie and sire is JOPA Elation Power, the 1989 National Grand Champion Murray Grey bull...


Heifer calf #17Blue: Dob:3/14/07, Birthweight 66 lbs: weaned Sept 30th at 508 lbs; average daily gain of 2.21 lbs... . Sire Rockliffe Patron and Dam OK Bernice .


Edited: photos taken Sept 16, 2007

 

[Putangitangi]

They look far more impressive than those weights - or it's my own eye at the beginning of calving and mine are all skinny little leggy things still.

Are they around your average weaning weights and growth-rates? I very much like the silvery grey.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Jeanne- I agree with you about the positioning of cattle. That is why is stressed "IN THIS PICTURE". And this is why I repeat that 'pictures' are a terrible way to attempt to assess what an animal really is like, and the faults they possess. It is not 'fair' to the owner, it is not fair to the Judge, and it sure isn't fair to the animal! By the same token - there are animals that a picture taken with an old Brownie Reflex camera of 1940 couldn't look any better if it were taken with a 2007 Kodak Electronic Digital 50+ Zoom Video Cam! At least, with the 2007 Video, we could see all of the faults more clearly!

Your calves are knockouts! Don't loose those Genetics! Just for the "Halibut", do a flush of the dam(s) and do some line-breeding with a couple of recipients. (Sire to daughter - Son to dam). You won't lose much, and you may GAIN a total Genetic Explosion. That is the way the Angus Eileenmere's were developed - - all the way up to Dynamo and beyond. Just don't overdo a good thing. Some people can't stand prosperity!

DOC HARRIS

 

[CowpokeJ]

Do you have any ugly cattle? Omg, everything I've seen that you posted....nice....

 

[OK Jeanne]

Don't loose those Genetics! Just for the "Halibut", do a flush of the dam(s) and do some line-breeding with a couple of recipients. (Sire to daughter - Son to dam).
DOC HARRIS

We are trying to pencil out some linebreeding. We plan to
use half-brother to half-sister next spring---both sired by
Rockliffe Patron. This past breeding season we have bred
some half-siblings who had JOPA Elation Power as their
common sire, so we will anxiously await those calves.

Here's Patron:

And here's JOPA Elation Power:

Both the bull calf and heifer calf shown in my first post above are in the
internet auction. Here's a link to the "gallery" page where
thumbnail photos are shown of all the animals in the
sale:

http://tinyurl.com/zmjtf

I've had difficulty getting more breeders to sign up animals
for sale. The story seems to be common, i.e. they had
already promised friends/neighbors whatever calves or
cows, etc that would be for sale. Next year I will try
to twist some arms and get people to hold off selling
until the October auction.

 

[KNERSIE]

Jeanne- I agree with you about the positioning of cattle. That is why is stressed "IN THIS PICTURE". And this is why I repeat that 'pictures' are a terrible way to attempt to assess what an animal really is like, and the faults they possess. It is not 'fair' to the owner, it is not fair to the Judge, and it sure isn't fair to the animal! By the same token - there are animals that a picture taken with an old Brownie Reflex camera of 1940 couldn't look any better if it were taken with a 2007 Kodak Electronic Digital 50+ Zoom Video Cam! At least, with the 2007 Video, we could see all of the faults more clearly!

Your calves are knockouts! Don't loose those Genetics! Just for the "Halibut", do a flush of the dam(s) and do some line-breeding with a couple of recipients. (Sire to daughter - Son to dam). You won't lose much, and you may GAIN a total Genetic Explosion. That is the way the Angus Eileenmere's were developed - - all the way up to Dynamo and beyond. Just don't overdo a good thing. Some people can't stand prosperity!

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

I have a linebreeding question for you.

In the start of a linebreeding program, would you be as agressive as you stated, by breeding sire to daughter - son to dam, or would it be better to stay more conservative and breed half brother to halfsister for a few generations to weed out more genetic trash before breeding closer? Or stick to the halfsib matings and never go over the natural 50% influence form a single parent?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Jeanne- I agree with you about the positioning of cattle. That is why is stressed "IN THIS PICTURE". And this is why I repeat that 'pictures' are a terrible way to attempt to assess what an animal really is like, and the faults they possess. It is not 'fair' to the owner, it is not fair to the Judge, and it sure isn't fair to the animal! By the same token - there are animals that a picture taken with an old Brownie Reflex camera of 1940 couldn't look any better if it were taken with a 2007 Kodak Electronic Digital 50+ Zoom Video Cam! At least, with the 2007 Video, we could see all of the faults more clearly!

Your calves are knockouts! Don't loose those Genetics! Just for the "Halibut", do a flush of the dam(s) and do some line-breeding with a couple of recipients. (Sire to daughter - Son to dam). You won't lose much, and you may GAIN a total Genetic Explosion. That is the way the Angus Eileenmere's were developed - - all the way up to Dynamo and beyond. Just don't overdo a good thing. Some people can't stand prosperity!

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

I have a linebreeding question for you.

In the start of a linebreeding program, would you be as agressive as you stated, by breeding sire to daughter - son to dam, or would it be better to stay more conservative and breed half brother to halfsister for a few generations to weed out more genetic trash before breeding closer? Or stick to the halfsib matings and never go over the natural 50% influence form a single parent?

KNERSIE-

To answer your question in a word - yes, I would be as aggressive as I stated. Having said that, now we come to what could be a long and very complicated discussion of the intricacies of maximizing genetic influences of our beef cattle friends through INTELLIGENT mating techniques. As with any controversial subject, determining and defining the rhetoric is paramount to the reasonable give-and-take of ideas.
I am sure that a majority of breeders have a workable knowledge of genetics. They have to have in order to really know what they are attempting to do with their beef programs. But to get specific with the exactness of the terms involved in the breeding of their beef cattle, there seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding as to just what some of the terms mean. This could take a long, long time to delve into a Genetics class just for a "Glossary of Terms". For our purposes in this discussion, we should consider four phases of mating plans. They are Inbreeding, Linebreeding, Closebreeding and Crossbreeding, and here are some short definitions to stabilize our thinking:

Inbreeding- Continual mating of individuals of the same or closely related genetics.

Linebreeding- The most conservative form in Inbreeding.

Closebreeding- A breeding system which uses EXTREME inbreeding, such as mating between siblings or between parents and offspring.

Crossbreeding- mating of individuals from DIFFERENT breeds.

In my suggestion to do some linebreeding with Jeanne's calves, you will note that I included flushing the dams of the calves, implanting in a "couple" of recipients the "son to daughter and sire to dam" protocol just to see what would result. It is the quickest way in the cattle breeding business to get responses (not like mice or rabbits!), and you are not loosing a lot of time. By following your suggestion, KNERSIE, breeding half siblings for a. . . "few generations to weed out the genetic trash before breeding closer", that would take in the vicinity of nine to fifteen years of culling and watching. Good idea, but very time-consuming in a breeder's lifetime.

Linebreeding, being conservative, is usually associated with slower improvement and limited risk of producing undesirable individuals. It does not emphasize continuous sire-daughter, dam-son, or brother-sister matings. That is the key to conservative linebreeding. The main purpose of LINEbreeding is to transmit a large percentage of one outstanding ancestor's genes from generation to generation without causing an increase in the frequency of undesirable traits often associated with INbreeding.

All of these various mating protocols can be overdone, resulting in a complete 'crash' of the intent of the plans in the first place. I will stand on the principles I have held in past discussions - MODERATION IN ALL THINGS! But to "stick to the half-sib matings and never go over the 50% influence of the single parent" results in NOT making much genetic progress.

It should go without saying that any breeding method demands RIGOROUS CULLING! And linebreeding justifies that obligation.

I didn't intend for this answer to be this involved, but Genetics and it's correct management IS complicated and involved. I will come back with another post including a "Line Breeding Chart" that I think will explain a lot of the particulars of what Linebreeding is and how it is accomplished.

DOC HARRIS

HERE is the web site for the "Line Breeding Chart. It refers to rabbits, but the principles are the same for Cattle. I would suggest that you copy it and mark out the "F" Generations (1, 2, 3, 4, etc) and substitute your own Ranch genetics in their places to see how a plan for you might work!

http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/LineBreedingChart.html

DOC

 

[East Caney]

If that's bad fly control then I must be really terrible.

My thoughts too. The best fly control, however, is the frost that surely must be on its way soon. I do try to keep the flys from hindering the growth of calves too much (not sure how much they actually hinder).

As for those calves, I'd definitely say they're above average. Very good looking. I do enjoy seeing animals from people who are actually helping the beef business work well. Good job.

EC

 

[mgman]

Great looking calves Jeanne! Sure do wish you weren't so far away-they would look good in my herd!!

 

[OK Jeanne]

Great looking calves Jeanne! Sure do wish you weren't so far away-they would look good in my herd!!

Mgman: Browse through the auction site....surely there's one or more that you just can't do without!

http://www.murraygrey.net/cgi-bin/aucti ... ction=main


Seriously, have you already sold or promised all your
Murray Grey calf crop for the year?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

For those of you who have a cavalier attitude in regard to "Hornflies", I suggest you go on a SEARCH engine and type "Hornflies" in the SEARCH box! Flies are a much larger and more critical problem than you think they are! They cost you $$$ every year! Waving them away from your face is as useless as urinating in the sea to raise the tide!

DOC HARRIS

 

[mgman]

Jeanne,

Yes, this year's calves are all spoken for. Someone picked up the crossbred heifers this past weekend, and the steers are going next weekend.
I'm keeping all of my remaining registered heifer calves for replacements-trying to build up my purebred numbers.

I really like the #14 heifer calf that you have listed on the internet auction-she looks like she's going to be an outstanding cow and certainly has some impressive genetics! Is there any chance you'd consider a fall "vacation" to Wisconsin to deliver her!?!? :lol:

 

[waihou]

Terrific muscling in those Sires Jeanne. Does Elation Power have Balmoral Elation in his breeding?

Pity we are too far away to make use of some of your genetics!

 

[OK Jeanne]

For those of you who have a cavalier attitude in regard to "Hornflies", I suggest you go on a SEARCH engine and type "Hornflies" in the SEARCH box! Flies are a much larger and more critical problem than you think they are! They cost you $$$ every year! Waving them away from your face is as useless as urinating in the sea to raise the tide!

DOC HARRIS

Right you are Doc.....Fly control is always a struggle and
some years worse than others. I took the bull calf
and heifer calf photos on Sept 16th. A few days later
we did pour-on a fly control product----which left
a greasy looking stain on everyone's back. Two of the
bred cows we have in the auction show those ugly
stains in their photos-----but no flies!!!


Ms. Waihou: yes Balmoral Elation is the sire of JOPA
Elation Power. Here is Balmoral Elation's show
photo---(-he was a bit too tall for our purposes,
but his son, Elation Power was a moderate frame 5)

 

[novatech]

Don't loose those Genetics! Just for the "Halibut", do a flush of the dam(s) and do some line-breeding with a couple of recipients. (Sire to daughter - Son to dam).
DOC HARRIS

We are trying to pencil out some linebreeding. We plan to
use half-brother to half-sister next spring---both sired by
Rockliffe Patron. This past breeding season we have bred
some half-siblings who had JOPA Elation Power as their
common sire, so we will anxiously await those calves.

Here's Patron:

And here's JOPA Elation Power:

Both the bull calf and heifer calf shown in my first post above are in the
internet auction. Here's a link to the "gallery" page where
thumbnail photos are shown of all the animals in the
sale:

http://tinyurl.com/zmjtf

I've had difficulty getting more breeders to sign up animals
for sale. The story seems to be common, i.e. they had
already promised friends/neighbors whatever calves or
cows, etc that would be for sale. Next year I will try
to twist some arms and get people to hold off selling
until the October auction.

Just an interesting article on linebreeding that you and others may want to look over. Explained a lot to me.
http://www.cattle-sale.net/articles/lau ... eeding.htm

http://www.dailypost.com/~santee/linebreeding.htm