simmental cow killers

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JHH

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Any info on the popular simmy ( Fleckveigh) cow killers? I have old semen and would like to look them up. See if I should throw out or what?
 
Heard a local vet say years ago that he was glad when one of our neighbors quit using those Simmental bulls. Calving trouble is a common thread associated with those old time Simmentals. Just the potential for calving trouble alone would keep me away from them, then factor in the spotting, and diluter the surviving calves would be docked at the market.
 
Could be worth nothing or $500 a dose or more. What bulls? I've used Fleckvieh cattle since the 80's. Like in any breed lots of good old bulls and others that you would rather forget. More often than not the Fullblood bulls avg the same or more than the blacks and reds in Canada the past few years.
 
That's painting with a broad brush, and not necessarily truthful. While some older sires might well classify as 'cow-killers', there are some from the 'early days' that would still be very useful today - especially if folks weren't hung up on the all-black hide deal.
First full-Fleck bull I used, back in the late 1980s is still in the top 2% of the breed for Calving Ease Direct & (low) birthweight, top 1% of breed for Maternal Calving ease. Also top 3% for marbling. IIRC, at the time, he was a trait leader for WW/YW as well, but has dropped to the 99th percentile in those categories in the last 30+ years. I'd still look at him today as a 'cow-maker', and he'd sire moderate frame, even today.... I'd use him in a second, if i had semen in the tank.
Last round of breeding we did before we sold out, we went back to a fullblood Fleckvieh sire on some of the cows... would have liked to see how those calves turned out...

You can do an animal search at simmental.org and see how those old bulls pan out with regard to Calving Ease, etc. As cattleman99 says, some may be worth something, some may have needed discarding 30 years ago.
I'd like to see a listing of them... I'm not in the market, but discussion of positive/negative experiences folks had with some of them, by longtime breeders, like Jeanne, could be quite interesting - and might even change your mind.
 
If the tank is properly maintained, and the straws handled correctly...theoretically those straws are good... almost forever.
Agree with SBMF... I'd bet that at least some of it would draw some interest - and $$ from someone.
 
That pedigree brings back memories...
He'd be a halfblood Fleckvieh - son of that great old full-Fleck bull ABR Sir Arnold G809, that was a 5-trait leader in his day (CED, BW, WW, YW, CEM). Double shot of Signal on the bottom side - MGS and MGGS through Alpine Polled Proto, with Parisien (ASA #1) back there, too - two of the 'big name' early fullblood Simmental sires, and a really good early American purebred(APP).
Would probably make a big, heavy-milking cow... but color dilution and spots would be strong likelihoods. Certainly not a 'heifer bull, and he probably would not be what most folks would want today... I'd probably look at him as 'going backwards' on a lot of traits (growth, marbling, ribeye, API), so... no, I probably wouldn't use him. But somebody might.

I used a full-sib and a couple of sons of G809, and had an Alpine Polled Proto daughter whose influence (and color dilution gene) extended throughout much of my herd, 30 years after she was born.
 
Found 1 last night. Name polled master
1006805
Was a great bull for the times. Used him a little over 2 years and got some productive females. I bred him to commercial cows that were 1/2 and 3/4 Simmental going back to Shorthorn and Hereford influenceD cows which is what I had to start.
Being a polled traditional purebred bull that was Fleckvieh influenced only, now a days though I doubt he would be worth anything. He was fine to use on cows, was a long time ago but don't recall any calving issues. If you find any of his sire or grand sire in the tank it is worth money. Both 809G and especially his sire Siegfried were foundation Fleckvieh sires. Be pretty hard to look back through a modern Fleckvieh pedigree and not find Siegfried multiple times. He is still being used today whenever someone can find semen and was born in 1971.
 
Another one in tank named the force?. Can't see registered number cane code 2SM54

Another cane code SM0287
AND another SM0264.
 
Another one in tank named the force?. Can't see registered number cane code 2SM54

Another cane code SM0287
AND another SM0264.
You have old ABS sires. 264 is 2j polled Siegfried. Pretty sure my Dad used him a bit. He is a traditional purebred bull with a little Fleckvieh influence. Throws some bw but they were meat wagons too small for the times if I remember right. Found him in an old 1991 ABS catalog. I'm in Canada so suspect other bulls 287 and Force where only available in USA so can't help you with them. Doubt it's worth anything as he was scurred as well.
 
Simmental's were "cow killers" - but in all reality, it was partly because people wanted to "try" the new breed, so they picked a dink cow (800# - 1000# - normal cow weights) and bred to a 2300# bull. Yup - you killed her. I sure am not defending the reputation of hard calving back then - but - people were not too smart in their decisions for matching those huge bulls to their cows. We started out using Galant on everything we had. No calving issues at all. Good thing, we didn't have a clue how to help one if she had trouble. Later we used Achilles and Signal.
 
Simmental's were "cow killers" - but in all reality, it was partly because people wanted to "try" the new breed, so they picked a dink cow (800# - 1000# - normal cow weights) and bred to a 2300# bull. Yup - you killed her. I sure am not defending the reputation of hard calving back then - but - people were not too smart in their decisions for matching those huge bulls to their cows. We started out using Galant on everything we had. No calving issues at all. Good thing, we didn't have a clue how to help one if she had trouble. Later we used Achilles and Signal.
I agree in that it was combination of matching the two very different types of cattle. In those times most all of the cows around were small Angus and Hereford cows. People saw the growth potential and I doubt that there was much
understanding of what the heterosis affect would be, as they weren't familiar with continental cattle at that time.
 
Exactly... it comes down to making appropriate choices.

First Simmental influence we introduced into our herd(in south AL) was a halfblood Simbrah bull we bought in 1983 to go over mixed AngusXHereford cross cattle... calving ease was as good as any Angus bull we'd had, but the calves were head and shoulders above any Angus-sired calves we'd ever raised. Used him for several years... only calf we ever had to assist was an 'oops', out of a little yearling heifer. Lent him to a friend for a year or two for use as a heifer bull over his Limousin heifers before he went on to the salebarn.

Started using Simmental AI sires on our own herd in 1987, but I always considered the CED epd first and foremost... even on cows. We were in a busy mixed-animal veterinary practice, and couldn't count on being home to help our own cows if they had difficulty calving... was spending all day and night driving over the hills of southern middle TN pulling calves out of other folks' cows. Regardless, we never needed to pull one of our own.
Since my original herd was composed mainly of Holstein heifers we'd raised, I went with Fleckvieh bulls early on, to reduce frame size and increase muscling.
Later on, we continued to use Simmental sires, and had no more issues with them than with Angus or Shorthorn sires... but we always picked bulls with reasonable CED/BW epds... we didn't necessarily go for low BW/high CED for adult cows, but no sense in chasing trouble with known or potential hard-calvers.
 
Exactly... it comes down to making appropriate choices.

First Simmental influence we introduced into our herd(in south AL) was a halfblood Simbrah bull we bought in 1983 to go over mixed AngusXHereford cross cattle... calving ease was as good as any Angus bull we'd had, but the calves were head and shoulders above any Angus-sired calves we'd ever raised. Used him for several years... only calf we ever had to assist was an 'oops', out of a little yearling heifer. Lent him to a friend for a year or two for use as a heifer bull over his Limousin heifers before he went on to the salebarn.

Started using Simmental AI sires on our own herd in 1987, but I always considered the CED epd first and foremost... even on cows. We were in a busy mixed-animal veterinary practice, and couldn't count on being home to help our own cows if they had difficulty calving... was spending all day and night driving over the hills of southern middle TN pulling calves out of other folks' cows. Regardless, we never needed to pull one of our own.
Since my original herd was composed mainly of Holstein heifers we'd raised, I went with Fleckvieh bulls early on, to reduce frame size and increase muscling.
Later on, we continued to use Simmental sires, and had no more issues with them than with Angus or Shorthorn sires... but we always picked bulls with reasonable CED/BW epds... we didn't necessarily go for low BW/high CED for adult cows, but no sense in chasing trouble with known or potential hard-calvers.
Exactly... it comes down to making appropriate choices.

First Simmental influence we introduced into our herd(in south AL) was a halfblood Simbrah bull we bought in 1983 to go over mixed AngusXHereford cross cattle... calving ease was as good as any Angus bull we'd had, but the calves were head and shoulders above any Angus-sired calves we'd ever raised. Used him for several years... only calf we ever had to assist was an 'oops', out of a little yearling heifer. Lent him to a friend for a year or two for use as a heifer bull over his Limousin heifers before he went on to the salebarn.

Started using Simmental AI sires on our own herd in 1987, but I always considered the CED epd first and foremost... even on cows. We were in a busy mixed-animal veterinary practice, and couldn't count on being home to help our own cows if they had difficulty calving... was spending all day and night driving over the hills of southern middle TN pulling calves out of other folks' cows. Regardless, we never needed to pull one of our own.
Since my original herd was composed mainly of Holstein heifers we'd raised, I went with Fleckvieh bulls early on, to reduce frame size and increase muscling.
Later on, we continued to use Simmental sires, and had no more issues with them than with Angus or Shorthorn sires... but we always picked bulls with reasonable CED/BW epds... we didn't necessarily go for low BW/high CED for adult cows, but no sense in chasing trouble with known or potential hard-calvers.
My uncle and grandpa used as couple fleck bulbs in the mid to late 80 and rarely had to pull a calf l. However they had a commercial herd that was mainly black hided but had a lot of the old school chi blood from a chi bull they used in the early eighties. Those chixangusxherefordxsim cows produced excellent feeder calves and good replacement heifers too.
 

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