Showing Black Herefords

[msscamp]

"Hazing"? "We"? This is no 'hazing', it is simply a statement of fact. There is no such breed as a 'Black Hereford'. What people would like to pawn off as a 'Black Hereford' is simply a crossbreed known as a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface, which have been around for hundreds of years. It is that simple.

I believe this is the first time I have had a different point of view than you msscamp. I respect your opinion and hold it in high regards, but why can't she call it a black hereford? If the calf is black and a crossbred hereford, what difference does it make? It may not be an official breed, but all breeds must start with something crossbred. Who knows, these "black herefords" might be the next big breed...

Because there is no such breed. Anytime one animal is crossed with another to start a new breed it is given a new name - Brangus, Braford, Simbrah, the list goes on and on. What is trying to be passed off as a 'Black Hereford' is, in fact, a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface animal that has been around as long as there have been Angus and Herefords to crossbreed - but it is NOT a 'Black Hereford'. The term Hereford is synonomous with a red animal with white markings. If they want to evolve the Black Baldy to a higher plane - fine, be my guest and I wish them the best of luck - but don't try to capitalize on the Hereford breed name to do it. That is just wrong!

 

[WORANCH]

"Hazing"? "We"? This is no 'hazing', it is simply a statement of fact. There is no such breed as a 'Black Hereford'. What people would like to pawn off as a 'Black Hereford' is simply a crossbreed known as a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface, which have been around for hundreds of years. It is that simple.

I believe this is the first time I have had a different point of view than you msscamp. I respect your opinion and hold it in high regards, but why can't she call it a black hereford? If the calf is black and a crossbred hereford, what difference does it make? It may not be an official breed, but all breeds must start with something crossbred. Who knows, these "black herefords" might be the next big breed...

Because there is no such breed. Anytime one animal is crossed with another to start a new breed it is given a new name - Brangus, Braford, Simbrah, the list goes on and on. What is trying to be passed off as a 'Black Hereford' is, in fact, a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface animal that has been around as long as there have been Angus and Herefords to crossbreed - but it is NOT a 'Black Hereford'. The term Hereford is synonomous with a red animal with white markings. If they want to evolve the Black Baldy to a higher plane - fine, be my guest and I wish them the best of luck - but don't try to capitalize on the Hereford breed name to do it. That is just wrong!

Not trying to start a fight here but when I hear the term Black Hereford I don't think of a red animal . Just like when I here POLLED HEREFORD I don't think it's a horned animal.

 

[txag]

http://www.lockwoodcreekranch.com/content/hereford.htm

According to this site the polled hereford cattle were developed from crossing horned hereford with a Galloway and the Horned Herefords were originally developed from something else. The bottom line is that all of the breeds were developed from some other breeds (I guess they are all mongrels). Just because a breed is older does not mean that it is better. If you want to raise black herfords...good for you. I don't know what your registration fees are in the black hereford assoc are but I bet they are a lot cheaper than the hereford assoc is. In that respect you are probably better off to have a different registry.

i'm not sure why, but that site got their info from this site ( http://www.herefordwebpages.co.uk/herdsoc.shtml ) which is talking about the origins of the polled hereford in the UK, not the US.

from the original site:

"A number of strains are discernable; Horned, polled (hornless) and British Polled. Originally all Herefords were of the horned variety. British polled Herefords were developed by a group of breeders through crossing a Galloway bull with a horned Hereford cow. The resulting progeny bred true polled Herefords. By 1955 this new British Polled strain was established and was admitted into the Herd Book."

"The first Herefords were exported to North America in 1817 and quickly became dominant over the traditional Longhorn and Shorthorn breeds. In 1898, a lawyer named Warren Gammon was impressed by the sight of some polled cattle exhibited at the Trans Mississippi International Exhibition at Omaha, Nebraska. He later located 1500 naturally hornless cattle, choosing 3 bulls and 8 cows from which he bred the strain known today as the American Polled Hereford. Two organizations exist for Hereford breeders in the United States; the American Hereford Association, and the American Polled Hereford Association"

and from the AHA site:

"In 1898, Warren Gammon, an Iowa cattleman and lawyer, happened to see an exhibit of naturally hornless Herefords at the Trans-Mississippi World's Fair in Omaha, Neb. He set about to "fix" the hornless trait using the bull Giant and 11 females. From his efforts came the development of the American Polled Hereford Association (APHA). This association maintained ancestral and performance records on Polled Herefords until the merger of the APHA and AHA in 1995."

so the American Polled Herefords were developed almost 60 years before the British Polled strain was developed and the American Polled Herefords were developed from horned herefords, not some other breeds.

as has already been mentioned, the problem is not that they're starting a new breed, it's that they're calling them herefords. they're marketing on the good reputation of the "hereford" name instead of on the quality of their product.

 

[cul8r]

If the AHA doesn't have a problem with the ABHA, (which I assume that they don't since they didn't block the trademark name and no lawsuits), I don't understand why all of you folks do. There is not that many members anyway. If the red herefords are so outstanding then it won't matter if someone call a black one a black hereford. I'm thinking maybe these black herefords are better than some our your red herefords, is that what the problem is? :shock:

I look at it as being the same as why is there two different associations for polled and horned herefords, they are the same just one doesn't have the horn gene, no other breeds have this. The same with the shows, why can't they just all show under Hereford. I guess we should all push for a horned and polled show for every breed, also, lets not forget we need to break out the breeds into black and red, because apparently a black simmy or black limmy is not the same as a red simmy or red limmy. Is it fair for a red polled Simmental to show against a black horned Simmental?, apparently not according to all of you.

By the way, I have a Brangus/Hereford cow that I will now be calling a Black Hereford. She has all the hereford markings, just she's black instead of red.

Times are changing and as noted before on these boards, some of you folks need to get out and see the world more and welcome change. Every breed started somewhere.

 

[Alice]

By the way, I have a Brangus/Hereford cow that I will now be calling a Black Hereford. She has all the hereford markings, just she's black instead of red.

You got a picture of her? If so, I like to see it.

Alice

 

[txag]

i'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. the American Hereford Association does have a problem with a "black hereford" which is why they refused to allow them to be registered in the AHA......."The American Black Hereford Association (ABHA) was established in 1994, after the late John Gage had requested the American Hereford Association (AHA) create a sub-registry for black cattle. According to Joe Hoagland, ABHA executive officer, when the AHA refused, Gage set up his own association."

as for why the AHA didn't trademark the "hereford" name or file a lawsuit for infringement, i don't know but will try to find out.

btw....the horned & polled are one association & sometimes the shows are combined.

and i repeat myself......as has already been mentioned, the problem is not that they're starting a new breed, it's that they're calling them herefords.

one more thing, cul8r....that brangus/hereford is a super-baldie, not a black hereford. oh well, they're both crossbreds....good luck with getting them to register it. ;-)

 

[jnowack]

Black herefords are not being created to be a composite breed. They are simply breeding them up from a black base. It is no different than what many other breeds have done (Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh.......). The biggest part of the cattle you have seen from these breeds are purebreds which have been bred up.

 

[Ryan]

Black herefords are not being created to be a composite breed. They are simply breeding them up from a black base. It is no different than what many other breeds have done (Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh.......). The biggest part of the cattle you have seen from these breeds are purebreds which have been bred up.

It is different. Simmental, Limousin, and Gelbvieh allowed the breeders to breed up. Therefore, the Simmental, Limousin and Gelbvieh associations will recognize black animals. Whereas, the Hereford association has not allowed for breeders to breed up. Therefore, "black herefords" are not recognized by the Hereford associations, and therefore are not herefords. They are a hereford based composite breed.

Just the way I see it.

Ryan

 

[jnowack]

Black herefords are not being created to be a composite breed. They are simply breeding them up from a black base. It is no different than what many other breeds have done (Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh.......). The biggest part of the cattle you have seen from these breeds are purebreds which have been bred up.

It is different. Simmental, Limousin, and Gelbvieh allowed the breeders to breed up. Therefore, the Simmental, Limousin and Gelbvieh associations will recognize black animals. Whereas, the Hereford association has not allowed for breeders to breed up. Therefore, "black herefords" are not recognized by the Hereford associations, and therefore are not herefords. They are a hereford based composite breed.

Just the way I see it.

Ryan

So if the powers that be with the herford assoc. let them in they would then be herefords in your mind. They let Perfection in does that make him any less crossbred?

 

[Ryan]

Black herefords are not being created to be a composite breed. They are simply breeding them up from a black base. It is no different than what many other breeds have done (Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh.......). The biggest part of the cattle you have seen from these breeds are purebreds which have been bred up.

It is different. Simmental, Limousin, and Gelbvieh allowed the breeders to breed up. Therefore, the Simmental, Limousin and Gelbvieh associations will recognize black animals. Whereas, the Hereford association has not allowed for breeders to breed up. Therefore, "black herefords" are not recognized by the Hereford associations, and therefore are not herefords. They are a hereford based composite breed.

Just the way I see it.

Ryan

So if the powers that be with the herford assoc. let them in they would then be herefords in your mind.

If the hereford association recognized them as herefords, and allowed for breeding up, then yes I too would recognize them as herefords.

They let Perfection in does that make him any less crossbred?

I dont know who Perfection is, or if he is crossbred or not. Is there actual or proof of him being crossbred, or is it speculation and theory? But if the association says that Perfection is hereford, then until proven otherwise to me, he is a hereford.

Ryan

 

[msscamp]

"Hazing"? "We"? This is no 'hazing', it is simply a statement of fact. There is no such breed as a 'Black Hereford'. What people would like to pawn off as a 'Black Hereford' is simply a crossbreed known as a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface, which have been around for hundreds of years. It is that simple.

I believe this is the first time I have had a different point of view than you msscamp. I respect your opinion and hold it in high regards, but why can't she call it a black hereford? If the calf is black and a crossbred hereford, what difference does it make? It may not be an official breed, but all breeds must start with something crossbred. Who knows, these "black herefords" might be the next big breed...

Because there is no such breed. Anytime one animal is crossed with another to start a new breed it is given a new name - Brangus, Braford, Simbrah, the list goes on and on. What is trying to be passed off as a 'Black Hereford' is, in fact, a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface animal that has been around as long as there have been Angus and Herefords to crossbreed - but it is NOT a 'Black Hereford'. The term Hereford is synonomous with a red animal with white markings. If they want to evolve the Black Baldy to a higher plane - fine, be my guest and I wish them the best of luck - but don't try to capitalize on the Hereford breed name to do it. That is just wrong!

Not trying to start a fight here but when I hear the term Black Hereford I don't think of a red animal . Just like when I here POLLED HEREFORD I don't think it's a horned animal.

No fight, but I'm not sure I understand. When I hear the term Black Hereford, I don't think of a red animal either, I think Black Baldy. Are you saying you don't have a problem with Black Herefords as a breed?

 

[Lovell92]

Ok- We have one Black Hereford. I will try to get pics of my Black Baldies and my Black Hereford- just to show the difference ;-)

 

[msscamp]

There is no difference. Angus/Hereford produces a multitude of color patterns, simply because one gets a Hereford looking color pattern does not change the fact that the animal is still a Black Baldy.

 

[WORANCH]

"Hazing"? "We"? This is no 'hazing', it is simply a statement of fact. There is no such breed as a 'Black Hereford'. What people would like to pawn off as a 'Black Hereford' is simply a crossbreed known as a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface, which have been around for hundreds of years. It is that simple.

I believe this is the first time I have had a different point of view than you msscamp. I respect your opinion and hold it in high regards, but why can't she call it a black hereford? If the calf is black and a crossbred hereford, what difference does it make? It may not be an official breed, but all breeds must start with something crossbred. Who knows, these "black herefords" might be the next big breed...

Because there is no such breed. Anytime one animal is crossed with another to start a new breed it is given a new name - Brangus, Braford, Simbrah, the list goes on and on. What is trying to be passed off as a 'Black Hereford' is, in fact, a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface animal that has been around as long as there have been Angus and Herefords to crossbreed - but it is NOT a 'Black Hereford'. The term Hereford is synonomous with a red animal with white markings. If they want to evolve the Black Baldy to a higher plane - fine, be my guest and I wish them the best of luck - but don't try to capitalize on the Hereford breed name to do it. That is just wrong!

Not trying to start a fight here but when I hear the term Black Hereford I don't think of a red animal . Just like when I here POLLED HEREFORD I don't think it's a horned animal.

No fight, but I'm not sure I understand. When I hear the term Black Hereford, I don't think of a red animal either, I think Black Baldy. Are you saying you don't have a problem with Black Herefords as a breed?

No I don't care what they call them . And it seems the Hereford association does'nt care or they would sue to stop the use of the name .
It's not what color the hide is , it's whats under the hide that counts .

 

[msscamp]

"Hazing"? "We"? This is no 'hazing', it is simply a statement of fact. There is no such breed as a 'Black Hereford'. What people would like to pawn off as a 'Black Hereford' is simply a crossbreed known as a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface, which have been around for hundreds of years. It is that simple.

I believe this is the first time I have had a different point of view than you msscamp. I respect your opinion and hold it in high regards, but why can't she call it a black hereford? If the calf is black and a crossbred hereford, what difference does it make? It may not be an official breed, but all breeds must start with something crossbred. Who knows, these "black herefords" might be the next big breed...

Because there is no such breed. Anytime one animal is crossed with another to start a new breed it is given a new name - Brangus, Braford, Simbrah, the list goes on and on. What is trying to be passed off as a 'Black Hereford' is, in fact, a Black Baldy/Black Whiteface/Black Brockleface animal that has been around as long as there have been Angus and Herefords to crossbreed - but it is NOT a 'Black Hereford'. The term Hereford is synonomous with a red animal with white markings. If they want to evolve the Black Baldy to a higher plane - fine, be my guest and I wish them the best of luck - but don't try to capitalize on the Hereford breed name to do it. That is just wrong!

Not trying to start a fight here but when I hear the term Black Hereford I don't think of a red animal . Just like when I here POLLED HEREFORD I don't think it's a horned animal.

No fight, but I'm not sure I understand. When I hear the term Black Hereford, I don't think of a red animal either, I think Black Baldy. Are you saying you don't have a problem with Black Herefords as a breed?

No I don't care what they call them . And it seems the Hereford association does'nt care or they would sue to stop the use of the name .
It's not what color the hide is , it's whats under the hide that counts .

Good point. Another good point, one I'm sure not going to argue with - regardless of what my personal thoughts may be! I think I need to do some rethinking on this. ;-) Thanks, Woranch. :)

 

[Ryan]

It's not what color the hide is , it's whats under the hide that counts .

Under the hide - Hereford and Angus Genetics.

 

[klintdog]

If memory serves me correctly, Perfection was around in the late 70's to early 80's and was THE bull to buy in to at the time. He was a really dark red color and his calves came out with some very interesting markings. My understanding is that they did a little research on him and found some Holstein in his genetics at some point. I'd have to check with my father to be sure since he was in Polled Herefords around the time Perfection came out. I just remember hearing that there were some major lawsuits going on at that time because of some high priced embryo's, etc.

 

[Lovell92]

It's not what color the hide is , it's whats under the hide that counts .

Under the hide - Hereford and Angus Genetics.

So Ryan- are you saying that a Brangus is not a Brangus because it contains Angus and Brahman genetics????

Or that a Braford is not a Braford because it contains Hereford and Brahman genetics???

ANY Cross will have the same genetics as the two(or more) breeds they were born out of :roll:

 

[aplusmnt]

Thing that seems weird to me is the name Black Herefords. All the other breeds like Brangus changed the name a little. Black Herefords sounds gives the impression they are like Angus and can be Red or Black with no Crossing. Makes me think there is Herefords that are black or Red.

Maybe a name like Anfords or Herngus would just seem more correct?

Wondering what kind of markings would you get from a F1 Black Hereford Cow and an F1 Black Hereford Bull? Would they be marked just like the mom and dad, or would you get lots of variations on what the calves would look like?

 

[WORANCH]

It's not what color the hide is , it's whats under the hide that counts .

Under the hide - Hereford and Angus Genetics.

:D Maybe we don't need to call them Black Herefords, let's call them the "Hereford with a little Angus Association" :shock: :D