Should I have helped or not? Caution - long post

[frenchie]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Even the ones about getting rid of her and the calf.

Here is some background that I did not include. This was her second calf. She delivered her first calf no problem last yr. Last week her first calf delivered her first by herself no problems. The bull has sired 5 other calves so far this yr, all delivered with no problems.

So, while I basically agree a cow that has delivery problems probably should go, I have my reservations about this one.


Roy

For the record i believe you did the right thing..

Here is a little free advice .Just my humble opinon.Things I think are important.

Keep good records ..they allow you to identify problem animals especially in a large herd over a period of yrs

Buy good stock they will sell at the top end well the others struggle in a down market.

Keep your costs down...Let them cows work for you...

Maintain a good mineral program. it reduces health problems

Put at least 15% of profits in a rainy day fund .

Watch the markets and the buyers..what do they want.


My wife tells me I should ,nt post this as it may offend someone..No offense intended.

 

[Kelly]

I am pretty sure she would have had it just fine. Sometimes we just feel better giving a little helping hand! Our time clock is ticking by wanting it all to be done and see a healthy calf in front of us so we may get a little anxious in the waiting process. How many Dr.s do you suppose wish deliveries would move along quicker? Moms for that matter... especially.
Frenchie - I think your free advice is great & don't see how anyone could take offense.

 

[icandoit]

This is a great post as my cows are getting ready to calve, (thier third).
Dun wrote:

You may not have needed, but you sure didn;t hurt anything and may have been exactly what was needed.
Too often we don;t realize we should have helped until it's too late. A cow not making visible progress in 45 minutes is a candidate for assistance.

dun

Dun, sir, is this 45 minutes after YOU see them. I guess I mean to ask is, how long do you know the cow has been laying down or is that just an educated guess? So many questions...

Cattle Rack Rrancher wrote:

I could see the feet inside and she wasn't making enough progress for my liking. I just walked out and cut a slice in the bag with my knife just in case.

Obviously the knife should be sterile, but where should you cut? I mean, anywhere or just above the nose? I hope I made that one clear. I'm not the best at making my thoughts clear.

Thanks
Dick

P.S. Caustic, I absolutely love your posts. You definately are a cattle wordsmith.

 

[cowgal]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Even the ones about getting rid of her and the calf.

Here is some background that I did not include. This was her second calf. She delivered her first calf no problem last yr. Last week her first calf delivered her first by herself no problems. The bull has sired 5 other calves so far this yr, all delivered with no problems.

So, while I basically agree a cow that has delivery problems probably should go, I have my reservations about this one.


Roy

Sorry to bother you with this question, but I am wondering. If she had her first calf last year and it had it's first calf this year--isn't it a little young to have been bred?

 

[dun]

is this 45 minutes after YOU see them. I guess I mean to ask is, how long do you know the cow has been laying down or is that just an educated guess?

There is alwasy a problem with rules of thumb, measuring the thumb. I've a cow is really working at it hard and I don;t see feet within a half hour I sleeve them to see if all is well. If they're not making continued progress ones I see the feet I'll check and see if there is a problem after 45-60 minutes. Now the obvious part is you need to know when the time frame starts. I just base it on when I first see them either really laboring or see the feet. If you see it at first light and you haven;t checked on them all night the problem could have been going on for hours without being aware of it. I just base it on when I observe it. But, alwasy the magic but, if a cow is obviously exhausted I'll check them sooner.
As it seems in most things, I disagree on automaticly shipping the cow. Circumstances can alter the situation. A slight mispresentation of the calf, i.e. one leg slightly back but not all the way back, can make them wok longer. They'll generally get it straightened out themselves and deliver the calf, but it will take longer. Longer delivery typically increases the return to heat and it's harder on the calf. If she does it a second time, then's the time for them to grow wheels.

dun

 

[cowgal]

I figure if a live and healthy calf makes it out of her with or without my help she has done fine. Granted, I may not be the HITLER OF CULLERS, but I wouldn't ship a cow b/c I was too impatient to let her have it unassisted.

 

[preston39]

I figure if a live and healthy calf makes it out of her with or without my help she has done fine. Granted, I may not be the HITLER OF CULLERS, but I wouldn't ship a cow b/c I was too impatient to let her have it unassisted.

JT,
All good advice on this.....bottom line.......if this is a good cow...don't ship for one delivery problem( that turned out ok)....with a previous one normal.
Check the birth ease of this bull and condition of this cow at time of this birth. Ensure she was in proper condition. Check all your abcs' of cattle management to see if you can find the culprit. May be something very simple.I would do a pelvic measurement just to rule out a potential problem...(the first calf may have been small...this one may have been larger) You got/bought her for a reason...as long as that reason is not over ridden by a more compelling one......Shipping is in line as a last consideration in my management team book.

Just curious...was this bull the same bull for the 1st calf?

 

[Caustic Burno]

I figure if a live and healthy calf makes it out of her with or without my help she has done fine. Granted, I may not be the HITLER OF CULLERS, but I wouldn't ship a cow b/c I was too impatient to let her have it unassisted.

JT,
All good advice on this.....bottom line.......if this is a good cow...don't ship for one delivery problem( that turned out ok)....with a previous one normal.
Check the birth ease of this bull and condition of this cow at time of this birth. Ensure she was in proper condition. Check all your abcs' of cattle management to see if you can find the culprit. May be something very simple.I would do a pelvic measurement just to rule out a potential problem...(the first calf may have been small...this one may have been larger) You got/bought her for a reason...as long as that reason is not over ridden by a more compelling one......Shipping is in line as a last consideration in my management team book.

Just curious...was this bull the same bull for the 1st calf?

Cow Flop problems don't make money! Cull and cull hard. Cows were meant to eat grass and hay thats it .
Cows that need any assistance are a problem cull.
I bought a high dollar cow had a couple of heifers then prolapsed culled her and all of her offspring. If this your hobby and you can afford to feed a cow for another year and take a chance on losing the cow or calf sounds smart to me. I raise cattle for profit this is a business, you have a dead calf, miss having a calf, need assistance having a calf. don't breed back in time, your Fired

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

Obviously the knife should be sterile, but where should you cut? I mean, anywhere or just above the nose? I hope I made that one clear. I'm not the best at making my thoughts clear.

This is cattle obstetrics, I don't worry too much about sterilizing the knife when the calf is just going to fall out onto the manure pocked ground. Its the same knife I use for cutting bale strings etc, though I won't probably be peeling my apples with it again right away. :lol: :lol: As far as where to make the slit, somewhere above the feet is best. The only reason I did it is that the waterbag hadn't broke and the cow was having a tough time pushing the waterbag out with the calf inside. Cutting it drains it and takes the pressure off making it easier for the cow to calve. Sometimes, the waterbag will break on the back end of the calf leaving the membrane over the calf's nose and mouth. Sometimes, the cow will pull it off, sometimes not. I just feel safer cutting it to make sure the calf won't suffocate. I remember losing a couple like this way back on the other farm. I don't often have to help my cows but I don't hesitate if they're having trouble. The less stressed the calf and cow are after delivery, the quicker they get up and sucking and the less problems you'll have down the road. JMHO.l

 

[Farminlund]

I doubt another post will make much difference here, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth anyway. I would have done the same thing (helped), however I have a theory that if you could help with just your mussle power in the field that she would have had it just fine on her own. I helped a second calf cow a couple of years ago as it was nearing midnight & I wanted to go to bed (the epd for birth weght was ~4 lbs - Angus) . I rebred her to a bull with a birth weight of nearly 6 lbs & she subsequently had it on her own just fine. So the fact that you helped with your limited musle power is not indicative of a calving problem, as my cow can testify to

 

[Marian]

I don't think it ever hurts to give them a little hand so long as they don't attack you or something. I had a calf about 6 o'clock this morning that was coming out with the bag still intact. I could see the feet inside and she wasn't making enough progress for my liking. I just walked out and cut a slice in the bag with my knife just in case. Took her about two minutes to deliver that calf after I did that. I always figure less stress on the cow is better. Also, I had to get to work and I don't want to be sitting here all day wondering if she's making out alright.

LOL...HUMMMM .... Another impatient man? ;-) ........ but, you did good, taking the pressure of the water bag away from her. I too have help pull babies from over worked cows, especially heifers. I talk from experience!! (had babies of my own.. ;-(( ) Take that pressure off !!!

 

[preston39]

I don't think it ever hurts to give them a little hand so long as they don't attack you or something. I had a calf about 6 o'clock this morning that was coming out with the bag still intact. I could see the feet inside and she wasn't making enough progress for my liking. I just walked out and cut a slice in the bag with my knife just in case. Took her about two minutes to deliver that calf after I did that. I always figure less stress on the cow is better. Also, I had to get to work and I don't want to be sitting here all day wondering if she's making out alright.

LOL...HUMMMM .... Another impatient man? ;-) ........ but, you did good, taking the pressure of the water bag away from her. I too have help pull babies from over worked cows, especially heifers. I talk from experience!! (had babies of my own.. ;-(( ) Take that pressure off !!!

==========
Marian,
See you just confirmed why I always believe in listening to an experienced mom...at least on the ranch!

 

[riverdance]

I like hearing stories of a breeder with a heart. I think you did a splendid job...I recently had 5 dexter heifers give birth all within a week of ...all apparently easy births but one...If I was there to assist "Charlie" probably wouldnt have been born brain damaged and blind in both eyes. A week after he was born we had to put him down. The mum had retained afterbirth for about a week and needed medication to discharge it finally. (No I didn't pull it out the infection was causing her to retain it) All this probably could have been avoided had I been there to help deliver. Vet thinks it was problem delivery where the calf didnt get enough oxygen causing the brainl damage. He couldnt hold his head straight up and walked in little circles when he could walk. Thats what can happen in just one day. She has previously had 5 other births with NO complications, so I figure its just a one off...so yes we will keep her too.

 

[royB]

Sorry to bother you with this question, but I am wondering. If she had her first calf last year and it had it's first calf this year--isn't it a little young to have been bred?

Sorry cowgal, typo. Her first calf is from Oct '02, this is her second, different bull as she came bred. The delay for both was due to having a bull problem of our own and this is a new young bull so no accurate EPDs. With that said, all his other calves were small, 45 - 50 lbs, this one was close to 75.