shipped today update with weights

[rockridgecattle]

Shipped calves today.
As i have mentioned before, we sold alot of cows last year and it was a difficult decision. HOWEVER, after loading the truck, what a difference in size of calves. I do not know actual weights, that will be tomorrow. But the size of them! We were stocked heavy before, too much if we had a drought, or in our case flood, but sort of enough if it was a good growing season. Now we are a slight bit understocked, (a bit of wasted grass, and they were very picky eaters this summer) if there is such a thing. The calves had nice round hips, thick shoulders and stood taller. Got squished by a few and they are definitely heavier.
I think it was a good desicion to sell. I am eager to see the wean weight averages to see if they are really higher or if it is my imagination in overdrive!
There were two calves from heifers. The calves were definitely smaller. One a steer, the other a bull we were thinking on growing out. In a perfect world, we might have kept the cows and waited on another year to see if they comes up in milk. With prices not great and the looks of the other heifer's calves, I'm leaning towards selling or butchering. What are your thoughts? Both have had one calf only, and are 2 1/2 years old, and not bad shape. Hubby is leaning to keep, I'm leaning to sell/butcher Opinions?
Preg testing is next Thursday and we are culling again any opens and misfits and cut that one we thought might make a good bull.
Our vet got an ultrasound to preg test on farm. She says her arm and shoulder are happy, looking forward to seeing the new toy!

 

[MoGal]

There were two calves from heifers. The calves were definitely smaller. One a steer, the other a bull we were thinking on growing out. In a perfect world, we might have kept the cows and waited on another year to see if they comes up in milk. With prices not great and the looks of the other heifer's calves, I'm leaning towards selling or butchering. What are your thoughts? Both have had one calf only, and are 2 1/2 years old, and not bad shape. Hubby is leaning to keep, I'm leaning to sell/butcher Opinions?

I'd wait to see what the preg check comes up as. Sometimes that changes one's mind quickly. You mention they didn't milk as well as you hoped...... We've had several that didn't milk as well as I thought they should as 2 yr olds and those calves learned to steal a meal. The young cows had more milk with the 2nd calf and even more with the 3rd calf.

I know some people say if they don't have enough milk for their first calf that it will never improve......... that has not been my experience.

 

[randiliana]

quote]There were two calves from heifers. The calves were definitely smaller. One a steer, the other a bull we were thinking on growing out. In a perfect world, we might have kept the cows and waited on another year to see if they comes up in milk. With prices not great and the looks of the other heifer's calves, I'm leaning towards selling or butchering. What are your thoughts? Both have had one calf only, and are 2 1/2 years old, and not bad shape. Hubby is leaning to keep, I'm leaning to sell/butcher Opinions?[/quote]

To me it would depend on how poor the calves are. I have a cut off point. I've learned that if they don't hit that point the first year, they almost NEVER will improve enough for it to be worth keeping. For March/Apr calves they have to be at least 400 lbs. I figure that they have to put at least 1.8 lbs/day on the calf, or you may as well cull her out the first year rather than feed her another year and still have a runt of a calf. Realize that your cost to keep a cow is probably in the $475 range, a 350 lb calf has a hard time paying for that, let alone the cost of buying or raising its mother.

Figure 1.8(lbs/day) x 200 days = 380 + 70(BW) = 450 lbs.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Thanks, I will wait and see what the sale brings, and note the weights and get back to you.
I guess it is also possible that the heifers were kinda dumb and let every calf that wanted to steal suck on them.
wait and see...will get back to you

 

[Aaron]

There were two calves from heifers. The calves were definitely smaller. One a steer, the other a bull we were thinking on growing out. In a perfect world, we might have kept the cows and waited on another year to see if they comes up in milk. With prices not great and the looks of the other heifer's calves, I'm leaning towards selling or butchering. What are your thoughts? Both have had one calf only, and are 2 1/2 years old, and not bad shape. Hubby is leaning to keep, I'm leaning to sell/butcher Opinions?

I'd wait to see what the preg check comes up as. Sometimes that changes one's mind quickly. You mention they didn't milk as well as you hoped...... We've had several that didn't milk as well as I thought they should as 2 yr olds and those calves learned to steal a meal. The young cows had more milk with the 2nd calf and even more with the 3rd calf.

I know some people say if they don't have enough milk for their first calf that it will never improve......... that has not been my experience.

Generally, heifers with four level teats (full quarters) will continue to increase milk production, year after year. Heifers with sloped udders (teats higher in the front and low in the back) will not increase milk production significantly and are only producing significant milk in two quarters. :cowboy:

 

[bigbull338]

if your on the fence about culling the heifers.id go ahead an cull them.you can raise or buy something thatll raise better calves.

 

[rockridgecattle]

So here were our weights

Steers at 530 LB for 1.1550 one calf for sure was from a heifer blacks
Steers at 603 - 1.0650 blacks
steer 670 @ .90 black
steers 638 @ .965 red
steers 526@ .95 two calves were from heifers reds
steer 425 @ 1.15 good price poor weight black
heifers 531 @ .9575 one was from a heifer black
heifer 610 @ .86 we were considering her as a replacement black
heifers 455 @ .91 3 of the 4 were from heifers xbred reds and one tan

Happy with most of the weights. Majority of the heifers did well. I think there were 10 calves from heifers
5 of the 44 calves were under 500 lb

 

[bigbull338]

looks like you did pretty good.even with the prices being off .05 to .10 cents a lb.but in all honesty prices should be better reguardless of what country we live in.just think how high the meat would be if our countries had to import all our beef.

 

[Aaron]

You did really well across the board. Last local calf sale was last Saturday and prices for weights comparable to yours were down at least 10 to 15 cents/lb. Neighbours got an offer on the farm for their calves from a large Southern Ontario order buyer. .70 on the heifers, .75 on the bulls across the board. :cowboy:

 

[rockridgecattle]

. Neighbours got an offer on the farm for their calves from a large Southern Ontario order buyer. .70 on the heifers, .75 on the bulls across the board. :cowboy:

OWWW that hurts.

Here, last wednesday, the prices rose 15 cents with the dollar dropping. Sad day in the cattle business when we are offered .70 - .75 cents lb. Sad when .95 looks good
You know we made more on a barrel of honey. 45 gall drums weigh 630LBs with honey. Right now honey is $1.50 - $1.60 with an anticpated climb to $2.00 by Christmas. I do not think we will see $2.00. If it does go 2 it will crash quite fast to .80 cents.
When watching the cattle, not just ours going through the ring and the buyers picking out a calf with frozen ears (we had two frozens and they stayed home), all i thought was, the buyers do not pick out honey like that. You send them a sample of honey any your price is based on color, moisture, and some florals. The flower does not matter as much as the color and moisture.
All beeks get paid close to the same price for their honey.
at .80 a barrel is $504.00
at 1.60 a barrel is $1008.00
There are two major differences with beekeeping and cattle. Beekeeping is much harder work and more physical, but you get the winters off. As well the risk of losing greater than 30% of your hives over winter is big. You are really dependant on the weather. As long as you can keep your losses down, you are doing ok. The part about losses are, if you retain at least 50% of your hives through winter, you can make up your losses with splits. That said, if you lose alot, you can not sell bees or increase.
Cattle, the physical work is at calving and haying. You still work through the winter feeding cows. The work is less strenous, and you are less likely to loose 30% of your herd on any given year.
Our area has seen a big shift out of cattle. In our little hamlets ( individual communities), we have seen several cattle producers get out of the business and go into leaf cutters, sellers of hay, grain farming, forage seed. There are more anticipated sell offs this year as anything less than $500.00 ahead is losing $'s

 

[SRBeef]

I looked in on a video feeder sale on Friday at a usually good barn and was very surprised to see how low prices were. Many good looking 6 wt steers going in the .70-.80 US range. Seemed ridiculously low considering the current corn is not too bad and the price of retail beef does not seem to be coming down proportionately. Are we seeing the effects of fewer potential buyers? "Take it or leave it" seems to be the word of the day in cattle. Jim

 

[JHH]

I looked in on a video feeder sale on Friday at a usually good barn and was very surprised to see how low prices were. Many good looking 6 wt steers going in the .70-.80 US range. Seemed ridiculously low considering the current corn is not too bad and the price of retail beef does not seem to be coming down proportionately. Are we seeing the effects of fewer potential buyers? Jim

Seen the same thing yesterday. But 320lb were bringing 110.00 to 115.00. But even at 115.00 that is only 368.00 Not good enough.

 

[hillsdown]

I looked in on a video feeder sale on Friday at a usually good barn and was very surprised to see how low prices were. Many good looking 6 wt steers going in the .70-.80 US range. Seemed ridiculously low considering the current corn is not too bad and the price of retail beef does not seem to be coming down proportionately. Are we seeing the effects of fewer potential buyers? Jim

Seen the same thing yesterday. But 320lb were bringing 110.00 to 115.00. But even at 115.00 that is only 368.00 Not good enough.

Why are people shipping cattle that are that light ? Obviously they are crappy calves or are to young to be weened.

Does it not make more sense for heavies to get top dollar because it will take less time and feed to finish them..I am still trying to figure out why people think that they should get the same amount of money for their 400lb animal as I get for my 700lb animal... :roll:

 

[Aaron]

HD, it does makes sense and it doesn't. Paying extra for weight that isn't there is one side of the argument (calf seller side). Paying more for heavier calves is a risky proposition (backgrounders).

I can see both sides because we do cow/calf and background calves as well.

The magic figure for yearlings is $800. Basically, no matter what happens, a backgrounder can count on $800 for yearlings sold in the spring, whether they are 680 or 1100 lbs. So ideally, as a backgrounder, I want calves that will hit the 700 to 750 lb mark at a year of age. Anymore weight and I am giving away free weight to my buyers. So if you have 700 lb calves and I pay a $1/lb. and it costs me $100 to winter them, where is my cut? They will sell around the 900-950 lb. mark for $800 cleared and I am sunk. I don't buy calves that are 600 lbs. or over. Light calves are hot for backgrounders and a little bit of a premium is paid by competition alone. Nothing I crave more than a package of whiteface calves in the 400-475 lb range. I want to make at least $200 on the calves I buy and sell as yearlings. I also want green, framey calves. No butter balls. Leave the creep feed at the store, because I'm not paying a premium. Also vaccinate. Nothing fancy. Killed vaccines are fine. I am going to re-vaccinate anyways. Age verifying is worth an extra couple cents in my book.

The local cattle association is starting to do vaccination protocol sales. Calves and yearlings in the program follow Pfizer's live vaccine Gold protocol. My calculations put the cost of drugs from conception to sale at over $10.00 per head. I bought 2 of the calves from this protocol and while they are good calves, they got heavily discounted for being over 550 lbs. (573) and I picked them up at .84/lb. It all comes down to weight. Meanwhile 350 lb calves under the same protocol were bringing $1.35 /lb.

One of my normal yearling grasser buyers bought a package of 7 steers at the local sale this spring. Weight was 715 and he paid $1.1150. I knew he was going to have a real hard time breaking even on those steers. He sold them Oct 3 and lost $1 on each one, having put 315 pounds on them.

 

[hillsdown]

Aaron I wasn't talking per pound I was talking actually dollars per animal. Why do people think their 400 pound animal should get the same as my 675lb boys in Sept. at 1.1425 lb which equates to 771.19 per head.. How do you figure that a 400 lb steer should get that ,and you the backgrounder make a profit.. If that is the case I will ween at 4-5 months ,,,,,saves me alot of money.......

You need to rethink what you do.......

 

[Susie David]

Aaron...you hit the magic number pretty well, I like to buy those heavies from time-to-time especially in late winter after they have put on extra pounds eating the other fella's hay. Looks like the seasonal price drop is early this year, will be interesting to see who is selling and who is holding.
My logic may be flawed but the way I see it is that the culls are sold early/mid fall and the animals that are brought to the sale later in winter are the ones that were held back to be replacements or to see how they develop and are sold when feed resources are running thin.
Looking to buy some bred cows and a few heavy steers and probably won't go to the sale for another month.
Dave Mc

 

[hillsdown]

Wrong my heavies were '09 calves with ZERO creep, and in a drought.

Age verifying here is mandatory now..Every buyer knows exactly when they were born and that is why I get top dollar. So for those of you that think you should get the same price as my heavies ,,so sorry but not gonna happen...

RR you did well in the market with all that has been happening.

 

[SRBeef]

...The magic figure for yearlings is $800. Basically, no matter what happens, a backgrounder can count on $800 for yearlings sold in the spring, whether they are 680 or 1100 lbs. So ideally, as a backgrounder, I want calves that will hit the 700 to 750 lb mark at a year of age. Anymore weight and I am giving away free weight to my buyers. So if you have 700 lb calves and I pay a $1/lb. and it costs me $100 to winter them, where is my cut? They will sell around the 900-950 lb. mark for $800 cleared and I am sunk. I don't buy calves that are 600 lbs. or over. Light calves are hot for backgrounders and a little bit of a premium is paid by competition alone. Nothing I crave more than a package of whiteface calves in the 400-475 lb range. I want to make at least $200 on the calves I buy and sell as yearlings. I also want green, framey calves. No butter balls. Leave the creep feed at the store, because I'm not paying a premium. Also vaccinate. Nothing fancy. Killed vaccines are fine. I am going to re-vaccinate anyways. Age verifying is worth an extra couple cents in my book.

The local cattle association is starting to do vaccination protocol sales. Calves and yearlings in the program follow Pfizer's live vaccine Gold protocol. My calculations put the cost of drugs from conception to sale at over $10.00 per head. I bought 2 of the calves from this protocol and while they are good calves, they got heavily discounted for being over 550 lbs. (573) and I picked them up at .84/lb. It all comes down to weight. Meanwhile 350 lb calves under the same protocol were bringing $1.35 /lb.

One of my normal yearling grasser buyers bought a package of 7 steers at the local sale this spring. Weight was 715 and he paid $1.1150. I knew he was going to have a real hard time breaking even on those steers. He sold them Oct 3 and lost $1 on each one, having put 315 pounds on them.

Aaron, as a beginner and cow-calf guy I think you are saying something very important and useful but not sure I understand you correctly.

You say above that you get $800 for yearlings in the spring "no matter what they weigh"and therefore you want to buy calves that will "hit the 700 or 750 lb mark at a year of age"

I can see the logic of that given the "$800 no matter what" market you are selling into, but my goodness! Something does not compute here! Checking my weight records, so far my steers typically have a 205 day weaning wt around 650 lb and a yearling weight of 850-875 lb.

You mention BWF and I think you are also a Hereford guy. Isn't a BWF or Hereford steer that only weighs 700 or 750 as a true 365 day yearling either underfed or a runt?

Why are we working to breed good growth and milk for 600-650 lb 205 day WW if we are going to get penalized for calves that are sold over 475 lb ? And I am talking about grass only here, no creep.

I'm not doubting what you say, just amazed in that it doesn't make much sense to me. And I bet to HD.

So in order to sell you a 475 lb calf I have to rip them off of the cow at about 130-140 days and sell then to you in August at $1.26 ( x 475lb = your $600 which leaves you your $200 per $800 calf)? But even if I do that and assuming you feed them properly aren't they still going to end up near 900 at 365 days/yearling? The only way I can see you can hold them to 700-750 at a year is if you don't feed them very much, which on second thought, is maybe the backgrounder's goal...

Plan A: So if I sell you a 475 lb/135 day old calf in August for $1.26 that gives me $600 per calf. Which now that I think of it is the same as selling a 600 lb 205 day calf at $1 which is way above the US market this week. Hmmmm.

I just don't like the idea of weaning calves regularly at 135 days and selling them but maybe it makes economic sense. Either that or I have to take them all the way up to 1150 lb (Plan B) and sell them at .80 for $920 at 15 months/450 days? So I get $320 ($920 - your $600) for feeding them an additional 315 days (450-135 days) or about $1 per day gross income...or about breakeven? So really I make nothing (at this "current" price structure) for keeping him around for another 315 days so I might as well sell him to you at 135 days?.... (thinking out loud)

I don't really like either of these alternatives but maybe I am starting to see what you are talking about? Please correct me if I am missing something.... Maybe I need a plan C?

Thank you for the above post - please check my math and logic.

Jim

edit: So maybe my plan C should be to sell 750 lb yearlings in March for $800? This gives me $200 more than selling them to you for carrying them another 230 days? That is less than $1/day but at least I don't need finishing rations and can do it on grass... but still maybe breakeven or close to it. Not an obvious profit? And I'd probably need to restrict feed in a feedlot to hold them down to 750 lb...which is not my thing.

Or maybe Plan D: none of the above???

 

[Alberta farmer]

I think Aaron pretty well has the right numbers for yearlings going on grass? The buyers want a steer coming in off grass in that 900 to 950 lb. range around Sept. 1. A 700 to 750 lean and mean steer is just what the doctor ordered in the spring. British cattle fit this market very well, not so much continentals.
There is a big difference between a calf born in January and one born in May come October? I guess a lot of it comes down to whether you enjoy calving in the winter compared to calving on grass. Personally I'm not too keen on hauling my butt out of bed at 2 AM when its forty below to check cows but then maybe thats just me...I did it for too many years to ever go back to that!
I think calving in winter makes a bit more money...if you are selling calves...maybe about the same if you background the younger calves for a spring sale? The trick is keeping the backgrounding costs low. A calf doesn't need grain for backgrounding, especially a British calf. No one wants an overfed yearling.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The difference is ---- a GOOD growthy milk/grass raised calf does NOT NEED to be backgrounded. They don't need to be and SHOULDN'T be backgrounded. The 650# - 750#, 205 day wt, steers should be put right on a feedlot. This industry is wasting money "holding" growthy calves in a background program.
As far as I'm concerned, background programs are for crappie calves, or really early weaned calves.

My buyer pays us $1/lb, off our scales. Calves have been completely preconditioned, wormed 3 times, 3 sets of shots, started on grain. Around 8.5 months of age, averaging about 800-850#. He loves them, says he makes good money every year on them. He sells freezer beef & sells direct to the packing plant. (gets CAB premiums on many - all PB Simmental). Buys our calves sight unseen.