Rotational Grazing Questions

[Bluseals]

Hello! Extremely new with a great deal of newbie questions!! Please go easy on me. I am looking to start a small cow/calf farm in Central Indiana. I will have the opportunity to purchase a 90 acre piece of property next year. It is mostly overgrown pasture and a few patches of woods here and there. I am looking into rotational grazing 80 acres. I am wondering how many separate paddocks to create out of the 80 acres and then how many Angus stocker per acre to start? From what I have be educated so far, it is smarter to start your operation with stockers until the cobwebs are clean out before moving on to Cow/Calfs. Any additional advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[Farmgirl]

Good advice on stockers. Don't put in permanent cross fencing. Your plan is likely to evolve over time. Go with electric fencing and portable water that can be moved relatively easily and inexpensively.

Good luck! Enjoy the journey!

 

[chaded]

I guess I don't understand why you would want to start with stockers if you want a cow-calf operation? What "cobwebs" need worked out?

As mentioned, I would not create a bunch of permanent paddock divisions. Use electric for creating paddocks as much as possible. Make sure you have a good perimeter fence. As far as how many, that depends. Depends on your grass, depends on how often you can/want to move them, etc. stocking rate is going to depend as well, mainly on your grass.

What are your plans for winter feeding if and when you go with cow-calf? Buying hay, having hay made on your place?

 

[littletom]

If your brand new to cattle, not sure about starting with stockers. Is this something you can put a good amount of time into?

 

[HDRider]

Make them as small as you can. Move as often as you can. Best to set it up to rotate in a circle. Think about how they get water. Rest each paddock as long as you can. Use polywire to make the paddocks adjustable. You rotate different in the summer than in spring and fall.

Will you be feeding hay in the winter? Not sure where you are. Stockers can come and go quicker than cow/calf.

 

[Bluseals]

I was told that being brand new, Cow/Calf were harder to start with or much more involved due to births and suck. So starting with stockers would let me get the basics down before moving on to Cow/Calfs. I have a contact at Purdue that is great with advice but is extremely busy. Also, I like to get advice from several different people to see what the consensus is. Just this question alone has yielded several different views and answers... My winter months I plan to feed round bale hay. Now as for the rotation part of my question: on my 80 acres lets say I go with 16 Angus stockers...How many different areas should I break the 80 Acres into? Do you break it up into 2 40 acres and rotate them back and forth every couple of days? Please remember I am extremely green and understand that some of my questions might sound silly or odd to people that are veterans to raising cattle. I just want to gain the most accurate advice before beginning operations next year. Thanks for the wonderful advice so far!!

 

[bird dog]

Your property shape and water supply should be a big factor on how many paddocks you can do. Try to start with six or eight.

Theoretically eight would give you 10 acre pastures. With 16 stockers rotation might be once per week from spring green up until first frost. Might be best to buy in March, run them all summer and sell in October. Wouldn't have to mess with hay at all. With a little supplement you could put 300 plus lbs on each of them. Of course all this depends on the quality of your forage. Try this and adjust as needed.

 

[simme]

Since you said you are "Extremely new with a great deal of newbie questions", you might want to get someone with experience to look at the "overgrown" pasture. Is it forage/grass suitable for cattle that just needs to be mowed? Is it weeds and brush and not much that a cow can eat? You need to be sure that the forage is there before you buy the cows.

I worked with a guy whose wife's father had gotten out of the cattle business years earlier and was not using the pasture. This coworker and his wife decided to get some cows. In the winter, he told me that one of them had gotten stuck in the mud at the edge of the pond. Then a few days later, another one. I had suspicions and asked if they were thin. He said they were pretty thin. I asked if they had plenty of grass or good hay. He told me that his wife had bought the hay. Then he told me that she took pride in finding the cheapest "hay" she could. I told him that I suspected that the cows were starving and that he had to feed them. He never mentioned them again.

Be sure there is something there for the cows to eat before you get the cows. You may have a handle on that already, but you did ask for advice. Sometimes people jump in without knowing.

Advice - it is always better to be understocked than overstocked (number of head of cattle). Understocked may be leaving some money on the table. Overstocked will cost you a lot.

Also be sure that you have adequate handling facilities. A pen to load and unload cattle. A system to move cattle from the pasture to a place where they can be constrained to examine and treat. Ideally a squeeze chute. But there are many variations that can work. Just avoid the situation where you open the door of the trailer to let them out and then have no way to get them back in a trailer.

My daughter is a veterinarian. My wife is the receptionist. She gets these calls - "I have a cow that ...." My wife asks "do you have a pen and chute that you can get it into"? They say "No, but she is pretty gentle". Avoid that situation.

Work out the issues with grass, fences, water, pens, etc. Then buy the cattle. That will be less stress. Just take it one step at a time. Keep us informed as you move forward. Maybe some pictures.

 

[Bluseals]

Thanks All for this advice! Exactly the info I was looking for....And exactly why I started inquiring a year or so early!!
The more advice the better!! I agree with the under stocking. I want to gain experience before squeezing every dime. I didn't mention but there is a good size creek that runs through the middle of the property. Would it be necessary to get water samples done? I have no idea what could be dangerous for cattle in a creek in the country, but hey can't hurt to ask! As far as what foliage it on it, I will look for an experienced cattle farmer near by. If not, I know you can send samples to Purdue and get great info. (I will probably do this anyways). I like the idea on not needing to purchase hay! There is not a pen nor a chute. The property is actually 90 acres. I accounted 10 acres for a pole barn, pen, and chute. I'm glad you mentioned though. I might miss something with out this awesome knowledge. Thanks all. I will have more questions soon.

 

[Stocker Steve]

It is a good practice to move stockers daily.
Most don't have enough paddocks so they rotationally overgraze.
Easiest way is to lay out rectangular single wire paddocks and then cross fence them daily with poly wire.
No back fence is required if you go into a new single wire paddock every second or third day.
3x8=24 paddocks a good number.
3x10=30 paddocks is a better number.

 

[Little Joe]

You should be able to get with your local county extension office and have them help you with identifying what types of grasses you have and a good stocking rate, their service is free and they are a valuable resource. They can also help you determine the best ways to set up paddocks. If your perimeter fence is good I wouldn't set up anything permanent inside. Use polywire and a reel and step in posts. I have a few places that I put permanent cross fence years ago and I hate it because there is no flexibility. And you will change your mind all the time on the setup you like so flexibility is your friend. You can also check with your local NRCS office and see what funding they have available in your area to possibly get more water tanks.
As a new farmer you would get preference on moneys available through NRCS. They will also give money to help set up rotational grazing if you qualify. I just got funded to put in 7 water tanks so I can start rotating daily, for the most part I will use polywire on a reel and move the wire with the cattle, that also makes it esier when you fertilize, bush hog, spray or cut hay because you don't have to work around fences.

 

[Lucky_P]

Ditto what Stocker Steve said...

We worked with polywire divisions for several years before we put in semi-permanent cross fences; don't be in a hurry to make things 'permanent'.
Ideally, on our place, paddocks were big/small enough that the cattle would pretty well eat everything in a day, then move on to the next paddock. Depending on season,rainfall, and cow numbers, sometimes that would stretch out to 3 days per paddock - or sometimes necessitate twice-a-day moves - but we tried not to ever keep them on one paddock for more than 3 days, to eliminate them grazing off the beginning re-growth of most desirable forages. We were shooting for 30 days regrowth before return grazing a paddock, but at some times, it was as little as 21 days.

Amen to the need for decent handling facilities! Back when wife and I were in veterinary practice, it was amazing to me the number of folks who had cattle and absolutely no way to get them contained for treatment... I often wondered how those folks ever got anything off to the salebarn! Used the d@mned Cap-Chur gun way more than anyone should have had to, and envied my classmates/colleagues who had the ability/gumption to tell folks "Call me when you get them up... I'm not a cowboy, I can't rope, and I'm not gonna chase your cow all over the countryside." Our boss, however, would spend(and have us do likewise) hours chasing cows over those middle TN hills, trying to get close enough to shoot 'em &/or drop a noose on 'em and dally 'em up to a tree or the brushguard on the front of the practice truck.

 

[midTN_Brangusman]

I wouldn't recommend stocker calves to a newbie. One train wreck and your out of bussiness. Instead i would buy good quality heavy bred aged cows, calving and raising a calf is nothing new to these girls. They can be purchased at almost kill cow price. If your wanting to start your own herd you can keep the heifer calves and sell the steers and cows at weaning.

For rotational grazing, cattle require three things: grass, shade and water. This will determine how you can spit your farm up. More traps the better.

 

[Dave]

I wouldn't recommend stocker calves to a newbie. One train wreck and your out of bussiness. Instead i would buy good quality heavy bred aged cows, calving and raising a calf is nothing new to these girls. They can be purchased at almost kill cow price. If your wanting to start your own herd you can keep the heifer calves and sell the steers and cows at weaning.

For rotational grazing, cattle require three things: grass, shade and water. This will determine how you can spit your farm up. More traps the better.

I agree good older cows. Even older pairs for the first round. Stockers most of the money made is in the purchasing and selling. That is an art in itself. If you are good at it a person can make money 4 out of 5 years. But even if you are good that fifth year will come along and cost you money. Just starting out the fifth year can easily be the first year. Those older cows didn't get to be old by not knowing how to raise a calf.

 

[Bluseals]

I wouldn't recommend stocker calves to a newbie. One train wreck and your out of bussiness. Instead i would buy good quality heavy bred aged cows, calving and raising a calf is nothing new to these girls. They can be purchased at almost kill cow price. If your wanting to start your own herd you can keep the heifer calves and sell the steers and cows at weaning.

For rotational grazing, cattle require three things: grass, shade and water. This will determine how you can spit your farm up. More traps the better.

This does sound like a better route. Let me ask you this...I have 80 acre and at 1 cow per 2 acres I could potentially have room for 40 head. Let's take in consideration of the rational grazing and not wanting to overstock and drop down to 18-20 head. How many heavy bred cows do you recommend starting with to work my way to the full operational head count? Being new, what would be a comfortable number to begin with? Thank you for all you advice!

 

[Warren Allison]

I was told that being brand new, Cow/Calf were harder to start with or much more involved due to births and suck. So starting with stockers would let me get the basics down before moving on to Cow/Calfs. I have a contact at Purdue that is great with advice but is extremely busy. Also, I like to get advice from several different people to see what the consensus is. Just this question alone has yielded several different views and answers... My winter months I plan to feed round bale hay. Now as for the rotation part of my question: on my 80 acres lets say I go with 16 Angus stockers...How many different areas should I break the 80 Acres into? Do you break it up into 2 40 acres and rotate them back and forth every couple of days? Please remember I am extremely green and understand that some of my questions might sound silly or odd to people that are veterans to raising cattle. I just want to gain the most accurate advice before beginning operations next year. Thanks for the wonderful advice so far!!

Dunno what the weather situation, growing seasons, etc., for your neck of the woods are. But I had a similar situation in the 80's, in north Ga, where I leased about a 100 acre pasture. The barn, working pens ( and we put up a team roping arena as well) and the water, were nearly smack dab in the middle. I cut it into 4 pastures; north , south, eas, and west of the facilities. I had 25-30 head of cows, and I'd graze them a week in each pasture, giving the other 3 three weeks each to re-generate. They had to go into the facilities area for water, salt, protein tubs and liquid supplement feeders, so it was easy to shut them up in that facility the night we wanted to move them, and just open the gate to the new pasture we wanted to move them to. I'd put the horses into the one we just moved the cows out of each week, because you don't want horses on knee deep green grass, so this worked out fine. Here, I'd have to feed hay Dec through February, so I'd end up keeping them in one pasture, and sow wheat and/or rye in the other three, and would have a good stand of those come March. With just 16 head, I'd say divide yours into 4 pastures, and rotate them weekly. Depending on, again, your weather and the type grasses you have, you might not have to feed 16 calves much hay at all.

 

[simme]

Back when wife and I were in veterinary practice, it was amazing to me the number of folks who had cattle and absolutely no way to get them contained for treatment... I often wondered how those folks ever got anything off to the salebarn! Used the d@mned Cap-Chur gun way more than anyone should have had to, and envied my classmates/colleagues who had the ability/gumption to tell folks "Call me when you get them up... I'm not a cowboy, I can't rope, and I'm not gonna chase your cow all over the countryside." Our boss, however, would spend(and have us do likewise) hours chasing cows over those middle TN hills, trying to get close enough to shoot 'em &/or drop a noose on 'em and dally 'em up to a tree or the brushguard on the front of the practice truck.

The vet situation is definitely different these days than 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Back in the day, most vet students were good ole country boys - most of which were big enough or strong enough or brave enough to chase and manhandle cows. Now, almost all of the new graduates are female, many that have never been on a farm and think that large animal is a horse or an animal in a zoo. My daughter has a farm/cattle background, but is not able to man (woman?) handle a cow, or rope a cow. At her first job out of vet school in a mixed animal practice, she learned that one of the new doctors the previous year had used the cap-chur gun on a cow, walked up to the down cow, cow jumps up, runs her over, she goes to the hospital with lots of broken bones, and had months of recovery. Daughter is not strong enough, big enough, or brave enough to jump out and get the cow tied to the truck bumper (some of the women are!). Even in the old days, sometimes the truck suffered as well.

 

[Little Joe]

If I were you I'd just start with 5 or so cow/calf pairs or bred cows and see how it goes. That way you can figure out any problems with your handling facilities or your place in general, you can kinda get the hang of rotating and working with the cattle before you get several to have to deal with. Also if you just have a few and decide that it's not for you or that you want to go a different route you don't have alot invested. There's alot to learn about cattle and alot of it is learned the hard way, and usually means losing money so best to start small. I'd recommend buying from an individual or finding a good cattleman to pick you up some good gentle cows.

 

[midTN_Brangusman]

I wouldn't recommend stocker calves to a newbie. One train wreck and your out of bussiness. Instead i would buy good quality heavy bred aged cows, calving and raising a calf is nothing new to these girls. They can be purchased at almost kill cow price. If your wanting to start your own herd you can keep the heifer calves and sell the steers and cows at weaning.

For rotational grazing, cattle require three things: grass, shade and water. This will determine how you can spit your farm up. More traps the better.

This does sound like a better route. Let me ask you this...I have 80 acre and at 1 cow per 2 acres I could potentially have room for 40 head. Let's take in consideration of the rational grazing and not wanting to overstock and drop down to 18-20 head. How many heavy bred cows do you recommend starting with to work my way to the full operational head count? Being new, what would be a comfortable number to begin with? Thank you for all you advice!

Is the entire 80 acreas pasture land? By pasture land i mean good grass not weeds/brush? If so, i would recommend starting the first year with about 20, if you have grass stockpiled you can buy in the winter, the cows will be cheaper and you would have enough grass to get to spring and wouldnt have to worry with hay just feed some supplement. That would give you all fall to get your fences and working facilities in order. Next fall you could double up if you have the grass.

 

[Stickney94]

Although I appreciate your interest -- raising any kind of large animal livestock is not easy. It's not rocket science either. But large animals can hurt you even if they don't intend to.

Assuming you have a local large animal vet -- ask them to recommend an area cattleperson or two that may be willing to give you some mentoring. The vets know who is all hat and no cattle and who isn't.

Rotational grazing is great -- but I think learning some basic animal husbandry would be the first place to start. Then you will need to have a water source and a means of keeping that water from freezing in winter. Then learn how to build fence. And then about 1000 other things, hahah. But its doable.

Good luck -- I get a lot of satisfaction from my small cattle herd.