Reposting

[Caustic Burno]

I am reposting this as I feel it is important for the beginner
maybe this time we can have a cattle discussion.


I have said all this at one time or other but we seem to have an influx of newbies.
So you want to raise cattle and be profitable. First learn to farm grass.
Well lets start with the cow the best cow is a Hereford type(red cow) momma as your options are endless to follow the market. You want black calf's you have Angus, Brangus, Simm buckskin calves Char red Hereford etc change your color by changing the bull. You have more options with a red cow..
Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.
You want to search for cattle from a similar environment you don't want to shop for cows in Canada where they have strong grass and optimum growth temperatures and haul them to South Texas where there is weak grass and hot temps and expect them to perform.
Now when you get out and start talking to this seed stock producer if he is yakkity yak epd's get in the truck and leave this is not a breed by the number business.
The reputable produce will ask what are you looking for and if he can't fill that bill he will direct you to who can.
The best buy is a 3-an-1 now you want to see this girl in the pasture if she is a BCS of 4.5 to 5 this is ok she is converting grass to milk to cash while growing another one in the oven. You want to find out if these cows are on welfare and being fed if they are these are high maintenance cows. If they can't perform on grass drive on. Second choice is Heavies you are looking for cows 5 to 7 years old as these cows know how to work.
You are looking for a cow that will give you a 6 weight calf at 205 days. This should be a moderate frame cow as she will require less feed maximizing profit. Buying 3n1's or Heavies gives you more time to search for the best bull for your operation.
Now the bull you pull up to XYZ Angus ranch you you see a a 1400 pound bull a 2000 pounder both have a 205 6 weight growth average you want the 1400 pounder he is cheaper to maintain and actually has better growth rate than the 2000 behemoth. You will market the majority of you calf's through a sale barn so you look for the animal that achieves the weight with the least input on grass.
Now the bulls are going to be from anywhere on food stamps to full blown welfare. If the breeder tells you the young man is on 5-7 pounds of ration a day he is going to slip some when you put him to work, if he is on 10 pounds or more he is going to fall, this is expounded by terrain and temperature that he has to work in.
You need to look for calving ease low birth weight bulls you can't sell dead calves. If you can you need to see the bulls progeny in the pasture shortly after birth and check the calf's body type for calving ease.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I prefer polled as you are docked at the salebarn for horns.
I actually prefer a three way cross here Hereford/ Angus/ Brimmer. For our area I like a Brangus Hereford cross the best for growth and hardiness. I also really like the F-1 tigers for mothering abilty and growth, I have just gotten to old for the tigers. The Hereford cow is the best buy with the most options to maximize profits.

 

[Jogeephus]

I absolutely agree with the grass farming priority. Eating grass is what a cow is designed to do. Raising cattle is rather simple, growing grass - well that can be tough at times.

To sum up my philosophy, I'm not going to pay for the privilege of owning a cattle, they are going to have to pay me for the privilege of eating my grass. JMO

 

[dun]

To sum up my philosophy, I'm not going to pay for the privilege of owning a cattle, they are going to have to pay me for the privilege of eating my grass. JMO

They are an employee, nothing more or less. They're job is eating grass/forage and raising calves.

dun

 

[KNERSIE]

CB - don't have any real experience with Hereford. How do you assure polled or horned in the selection process? I prefer polled. What are the main pro's and con's of a Hereford cow?What is the resulting hybrid vigour when crossed with an Angus?

Thanks in advance for your opinion!!

the polled vs horned debate has been going on for 100 years. In the past the polled gene pool was much smaller than the horned genepool and animals that should have been culled got admitted into breeding herds.

Horned breeders usually say that horned cows are milkier, have heavier bone, a wider structure and more capacity.

Polled breeders say their cattle have less waste, has a better meat to bone ratio and claim higher growth.

I think cattle are what you make of it, ie what you select for. I don't see any difference in the traits I mentioned above in herds where the selection was aimed a meaty functional cattle. I hate dehorning and the market for polled bulls is better, thats why I breed polled herefords. If a good heifer are born on my place that happens to be horned she'll not be culled for that, but I'm not very likely to use a horned bull in the near future.

What I'll have to admit is that horned herefords usually have better eyeset and better heads than polled cattle

 

[novatech]

Your going to have that kind of talk on any breed of cattle.
I've herd polled cattle have big heads and cause calveing problems.
Polled herfords will give more stripes on F-1's.
Personelly I ignore this polled, horned issue and select on which ever bull complements the individual cow the best. One big advantage of AI.

Caustic; I totaly agree on the Bremmer F1's, They can be a handful and that becomes a problem as our reactions slow down. I would also like to point out that they should not be the breed of choice for the beginner.

 

[aplusmnt]

Seems around here the difference in say a 4 year old and a 7 year old will just be a couple hundred dollars. Does it pay in the long run to buy the older ones for a couple hundred saving when comparing the extra time (hypothetically) that the younger cow will stay in the herd?

 

[Conagher]

Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.

CB, very good post with a lot of common sense recommendations. However, I am having a little trouble understanding this one. Could you please expand on this. Since the post appears to be directed to beginners, how does a seed stock producer (regardless of their past cattle experience) begin if they cannot expect to sell any of their seed stock for 10 years? Also, is the concern with "service after sale", or with the actual stock? Most seed stock producers I have dealt with (beginners and established operators) use existing genetics; very few develop their own.

Thanks.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.

CB, very good post with a lot of common sense recommendations. However, I am having a little trouble understanding this one. Could you please expand on this. Since the post appears to be directed to beginners, how does a seed stock producer (regardless of their past cattle experience) begin if they cannot expect to sell any of their seed stock for 10 years? Also, is the concern with "service after sale", or with the actual stock? Most seed stock producers I have dealt with (beginners and established operators) use existing genetics; very few develop their own.

Thanks.

Most seedstock operations only last sevsn years and the people starting out are fad chasers in most cases and breeding for the extreme's. This is a business about moderation and slow genetic improvement over generations. Breeding for the extremes breeds trouble.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

and most of the time these guys are rich with no pryor knowledge of cattle. just want too be in the business. they jump from one hobbie to the next. they are good for runn'in land price's up and registerd cattle though

 

[Caustic Burno]

and most of the time these guys are rich with no pryor knowledge of cattle. just want too be in the business. they jump from one hobbie to the next. they are good for runn'in land price's up and registerd cattle though

Another problem I have seen is they think everthing registered is seedstock quality. Until they learn that 80% of what is born on the farm belongs at the salebarn for hamburger. Stear Clear.

 

[Conagher]

Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.

CB, very good post with a lot of common sense recommendations. However, I am having a little trouble understanding this one. Could you please expand on this. Since the post appears to be directed to beginners, how does a seed stock producer (regardless of their past cattle experience) begin if they cannot expect to sell any of their seed stock for 10 years? Also, is the concern with "service after sale", or with the actual stock? Most seed stock producers I have dealt with (beginners and established operators) use existing genetics; very few develop their own.

Thanks.

Most seedstock operations only last sevsn years and the people starting out are fad chasers in most cases and breeding for the extreme's. This is a business about moderation and slow genetic improvement over generations. Breeding for the extremes breeds trouble.

Thanks CB, this helps clarify your concern.

 

[Conagher]

and most of the time these guys are rich with no pryor knowledge of cattle. just want too be in the business. they jump from one hobbie to the next. they are good for runn'in land price's up and registerd cattle though

This seems to make sense; If you are not going to be able to sell anything for 7-10 years then I guess you will have to be rich to stay in the seed stock business.

Thanks!

 

[backhoeboogie]

Seems around here the difference in say a 4 year old and a 7 year old will just be a couple hundred dollars. Does it pay in the long run to buy the older ones for a couple hundred saving when comparing the extra time (hypothetically) that the younger cow will stay in the herd?

Some of it depends on breed. Some breeds will have 20 good healthy quality calves. Some breeds won't. 7 year olds are excellent buys in many cases, likely better than a 4 year old from another breed.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

and most of the time these guys are rich with no pryor knowledge of cattle. just want too be in the business. they jump from one hobbie to the next. they are good for runn'in land price's up and registerd cattle though

This seems to make sense; If you are not going to be able to sell anything for 7-10 years then I guess you will have to be rich to stay in the seed stock business.

Thanks!

buy your cattle from a cowman. who's been at it for years. he'll know what his cattle can do for you, those overnighters most aint got a clue. if you pull up and see new barns and manicured pasture beware. they spend more time with the prestige than working on genetics

 

[HerefordSire]

am reposting this as I feel it is important for the beginner
maybe this time we can have a cattle discussion.

If you are a newbie and you are playing with $1K in cash would be a big difference when investing in a cattle operations. Generally, if you are going little time, the following original opinion may have merit. If you are going big time, see who the leaders are and determine how they got there.


I have said all this at one time or other but we seem to have an influx of newbies.
So you want to raise cattle and be profitable. First learn to farm grass.

Before you go further, what was your profit last year? What kind of numbers are we talking about? $1K, $10K, $100K? The reason I ask, since I am a newbie, there is no need to heed advice from someone that doesn't show a profit, especially, one that is trying to show how to profit from cattle. Your grass farm line was good as I see you post it numerous places and even saw photos of your grass pastures. Maybe you make your profit on selling grass to drought stricken areas for twice what the normal market is.


Well lets start with the cow the best cow is a Hereford type(red cow) momma as your options are endless to follow the market.
You want black calf's you have Angus, Brangus, Simm buckskin calves Char red Hereford etc change your color by changing the bull. You have more options with a red cow..

This is absolutely not true. Also, I am trying to raise Polled Hereford seed stock. This is a biased statement. Any breed can be crossed with another breed. The options are identical. It is the perceived target markets which fluctuate and Hereford crosses are not as healthy as black markets.

Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.

Baloney! They must be in East Texas, longer than ten years in business breeding seed stock, the breeder must be from European heritage, be between 5'6" and 6'0" tall, have a tattoo and earrings, etc. Some of the most talented breeders are the new breeders as they don't have all the garbage in the brain.

You want to search for cattle from a similar environment you don't want to shop for cows in Canada where they have strong grass and optimum growth temperatures and haul them to South Texas where there is weak grass and hot temps and expect them to perform.

Baloney! Genetically speaking, over a couple of 100 years, cattle didn't have time to adapt. A cow will adapt fine from one area to the next, specifically from Canada to the southern US. The Hereford breed came from Europe and took over the entire US without being adapted in a short 400 years or so. It takes several million of years to make any difference and specific body parts begin to form to promote the evolution of the species.



Now when you get out and start talking to this seed stock producer if he is yakkity yak epd's get in the truck and leave this is not a breed by the number business.

Make sure you are dealing with someone that knows what EPDs are, and then make sure they use them. If you do not own a truck, you may want to get into your car.



The reputable produce will ask what are you looking for and if he can't fill that bill he will direct you to who can.

Baloney! There are all types of breeders, experienced and not experienced, that will not ask you what you are looking for.





The best buy is a 3-an-1 now you want to see this girl in the pasture if she is a BCS of 4.5 to 5 this is ok she is converting grass to milk to cash while growing another one in the oven.

In my view, I generally like this opinion although the market changes all the time and this statement could be disadvantageous.



You want to find out if these cows are on welfare and being fed if they are these are high maintenance cows. If they can't perform on grass drive on.

Baloney! It would be nice to know if the breeder has raised the cows on grass alone when inspecting the animal and EPDs. Cows which can produce according to your plan should be attractive for purchase not if all they have ever had is grass. Sometimes grass is higher in price than non-grass feed products. It depends on climate and market supply and demand.


Second choice is Heavies you are looking for cows 5 to 7 years old as these cows know how to work.

Disregard this advice completely. The younger they are, generally they are higher priced, as they are more valuable and do not depreciate as fast but they depreciate more totally. While the 5-7 age cows are mature and know how to work and they may be priced attractively according to your goals, it depends on many other variables before anyone can safely openly recommend this.






You are looking for a cow that will give you a 6 weight calf at 205 days.

600 pound weaning weight is low in Texas if you have a successful operation. If you supplement the herd with native Texas grown supplements, 7-800 is feasible with the right genetics. The trick may be avoiding the wrong genetics.




This should be a moderate frame cow as she will require less feed maximizing profit.

Ask for the poster's proof on this one as I have yet to see evidence. For example, what type of frame is more profitable, a 5 frame or a 5.5 frame? Sounds like he slinging a gun from the hip after drinking a slug of George Dickel.


Buying 3n1's or Heavies gives you more time to search for the best bull for your operation.

Baloney! Time is constant. It may seem like you have more time. In reality, derivatives are all calculated on time and risk. As target time shortens, risk is variable.



Now the bull you pull up to XYZ Angus ranch you you see a a 1400 pound bull a 2000 pounder both have a 205 6 weight growth average you want the 1400 pounder he is cheaper to maintain and actually has better growth rate than the 2000 behemoth.

Again, ask for proof from the poster. Although he may very well be accurate in the claim, there are just too many variables to measure. There are also exceptions to every rule.



You will market the majority of you calf's through a sale barn so you look for the animal that achieves the weight with the least input on grass.

You cannot sell to friends outside of the sale barn. You cannot sell through the internet, etc. You cannot sell through the newspaper, thrifty nickel, it must be the sale barn, got it? Forget slling directy for a program or packer, of a feed company….because that way, I can't capitalize of the total value of your animal(s).





Now the bulls are going to be from anywhere on food stamps to full blown welfare.

Again, this is bulloney! The bulls are the same as cows in that they can be corn fed to grass fed. Each operation is different. What is important is…. match the plan to the genetics.




If the breeder tells you the young man is on 5-7 pounds of ration a day he is going to slip some when you put him to work, if he is on 10 pounds or more he is going to fall, this is expounded by terrain and temperature that he has to work in.

See how this breeder works?




You need to look for calving ease low birth weight bulls you can't sell dead calves.

Growth rates are generally higher for higher birth weights. Although you can't market- a dead animal, the high birth weights usually wean the highest, but not always.


If you can you need to see the bulls progeny in the pasture shortly after birth and check the calf's body type for calving ease.

Try using EPDS and measuring the cow opening. They are supposed to be very accurate.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Knew it wouldn't take long for a good thread to hit the septic tank. Think we just found one to beware of.
Herefshire if you think you have as many options with a black cow as a red you better retake biology 101.

 

[Campground Cattle]

am reposting this as I feel it is important for the beginner
maybe this time we can have a cattle discussion.

If you are a newbie and you are playing with $1K in cash would be a big difference when investing in a cattle operations. Generally, if you are going little time, the following original opinion may have merit. If you are going big time, see who the leaders are and determine how they got there.


I have said all this at one time or other but we seem to have an influx of newbies.
So you want to raise cattle and be profitable. First learn to farm grass.

Before you go further, what was your profit last year? What kind of numbers are we talking about? $1K, $10K, $100K? The reason I ask, since I am a newbie, there is no need to heed advice from someone that doesn't show a profit, especially, one that is trying to show how to profit from cattle. Your grass farm line was good as I see you post it numerous places and even saw photos of your grass pastures. Maybe you make your profit on selling grass to drought stricken areas for twice what the normal market is.


Well lets start with the cow the best cow is a Hereford type(red cow) momma as your options are endless to follow the market.
You want black calf's you have Angus, Brangus, Simm buckskin calves Char red Hereford etc change your color by changing the bull. You have more options with a red cow..

This is absolutely not true. Also, I am trying to raise Polled Hereford seed stock. This is a biased statement. Any breed can be crossed with another breed. The options are identical. It is the perceived target markets which fluctuate and Hereford crosses are not as healthy as black markets.

Now we need to find a reputable seed stock producer if they haven't been a producer at least 10 years drive on by as they are more than likely a flash in the pan breeder.

Baloney! They must be in East Texas, longer than ten years in business breeding seed stock, the breeder must be from European heritage, be between 5'6" and 6'0" tall, have a tattoo and earrings, etc. Some of the most talented breeders are the new breeders as they don't have all the garbage in the brain.

You want to search for cattle from a similar environment you don't want to shop for cows in Canada where they have strong grass and optimum growth temperatures and haul them to South Texas where there is weak grass and hot temps and expect them to perform.

Baloney! Genetically speaking, over a couple of 100 years, cattle didn't have time to adapt. A cow will adapt fine from one area to the next, specifically from Canada to the southern US. The Hereford breed came from Europe and took over the entire US without being adapted in a short 400 years or so. It takes several million of years to make any difference and specific body parts begin to form to promote the evolution of the species.



Now when you get out and start talking to this seed stock producer if he is yakkity yak epd's get in the truck and leave this is not a breed by the number business.

Make sure you are dealing with someone that knows what EPDs are, and then make sure they use them. If you do not own a truck, you may want to get into your car.



The reputable produce will ask what are you looking for and if he can't fill that bill he will direct you to who can.

Baloney! There are all types of breeders, experienced and not experienced, that will not ask you what you are looking for.





The best buy is a 3-an-1 now you want to see this girl in the pasture if she is a BCS of 4.5 to 5 this is ok she is converting grass to milk to cash while growing another one in the oven.

In my view, I generally like this opinion although the market changes all the time and this statement could be disadvantageous.



You want to find out if these cows are on welfare and being fed if they are these are high maintenance cows. If they can't perform on grass drive on.

Baloney! It would be nice to know if the breeder has raised the cows on grass alone when inspecting the animal and EPDs. Cows which can produce according to your plan should be attractive for purchase not if all they have ever had is grass. Sometimes grass is higher in price than non-grass feed products. It depends on climate and market supply and demand.


Second choice is Heavies you are looking for cows 5 to 7 years old as these cows know how to work.

Disregard this advice completely. The younger they are, generally they are higher priced, as they are more valuable and do not depreciate as fast but they depreciate more totally. While the 5-7 age cows are mature and know how to work and they may be priced attractively according to your goals, it depends on many other variables before anyone can safely openly recommend this.






You are looking for a cow that will give you a 6 weight calf at 205 days.

600 pound weaning weight is low in Texas if you have a successful operation. If you supplement the herd with native Texas grown supplements, 7-800 is feasible with the right genetics. The trick may be avoiding the wrong genetics.




This should be a moderate frame cow as she will require less feed maximizing profit.

Ask for the poster's proof on this one as I have yet to see evidence. For example, what type of frame is more profitable, a 5 frame or a 5.5 frame? Sounds like he slinging a gun from the hip after drinking a slug of George Dickel.


Buying 3n1's or Heavies gives you more time to search for the best bull for your operation.

Baloney! Time is constant. It may seem like you have more time. In reality, derivatives are all calculated on time and risk. As target time shortens, risk is variable.



Now the bull you pull up to XYZ Angus ranch you you see a a 1400 pound bull a 2000 pounder both have a 205 6 weight growth average you want the 1400 pounder he is cheaper to maintain and actually has better growth rate than the 2000 behemoth.

Again, ask for proof from the poster. Although he may very well be accurate in the claim, there are just too many variables to measure. There are also exceptions to every rule.



You will market the majority of you calf's through a sale barn so you look for the animal that achieves the weight with the least input on grass.

You cannot sell to friends outside of the sale barn. You cannot sell through the internet, etc. You cannot sell through the newspaper, thrifty nickel, it must be the sale barn, got it? Forget slling directy for a program or packer, of a feed company….because that way, I can't capitalize of the total value of your animal(s).





Now the bulls are going to be from anywhere on food stamps to full blown welfare.

Again, this is bulloney! The bulls are the same as cows in that they can be corn fed to grass fed. Each operation is different. What is important is…. match the plan to the genetics.




If the breeder tells you the young man is on 5-7 pounds of ration a day he is going to slip some when you put him to work, if he is on 10 pounds or more he is going to fall, this is expounded by terrain and temperature that he has to work in.

See how this breeder works?




You need to look for calving ease low birth weight bulls you can't sell dead calves.

Growth rates are generally higher for higher birth weights. Although you can't market- a dead animal, the high birth weights usually wean the highest, but not always.


If you can you need to see the bulls progeny in the pasture shortly after birth and check the calf's body type for calving ease.

Try using EPDS and measuring the cow opening. They are supposed to be very accurate.

I just copied this post because you proved Caustic's point better than anyone else could. Didn't want it to get deleted.
I have never seen a post with so many inaccuracies.
This is why the beginner needs to find the reputable seedstock producer.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

alot of cross's do not complement one another. so you cant do it with any breed. and new breeder can not have talent without some experiace. they may be inclined, but not experianced. dont mean thay can become good cattlemen. but you gotta know what works which ones are keepers and which ones needs their head sawed off . you dont learn it over night

 

[3MR]

I agree, but just becasue they havent been selling seed stock for ten years doesnt mean they arent cattlemen or know what they are doing.

I didnt respond to CB's post, because I understood what he was talking about and the point he was trying to make.

His point was, at least the way I took it, a newbie should deal with an established entity. That seed stock producer didntt hang around for ten years chasing changing idealized stats or taking advantage of his customers. A newbie is going to have to relly on the goodwill of the producer more than an experienced cattlemen due to knowledge base. He has more chance of being taken advantage of by a flash in the pan producer over an established one. Not to say there arent good young seedstock producers or old established criminals portraying seedstock producers, but I would say the odds favor one over the other.

Basically the whole post was his opinion, which he then explained. He was just giving general advice, advice that works for him which he felt might help others. If you try to disect it in black and white of course it is going to fall short, just as any advice anyone else might give. There are just to many variable.