Reposting

[CUZ]

CB - Excellent post, while I might not agree 100% with everything you said, I sure do agree with A LOT of it. I think you've hit a lot of good points for beginners, journeymen and long-timers. Your point about being grass farmers is so dead-on for many of us (feedlot operators excluded). Sometimes, when I get to fretting over the cows body condition I can't help but think about your "Grass Farmer" comment. Your 6- weight comment is still just a goal for some of us.

Now a couple of questions. When you talk about buying 3-in1's and heavy breds are you having your best success at the salebarn or are you going to breeder sales? If you're buying at the salebarn do you go by anything other than the "look" of the cow or do you try to find out who's cow it is? Can you describe your "buying at the salebarn" technique? (How long do you spend out in the barn observing them in the pen before you decide who you like? Do you try to make the first low bid when she comes in the ring or do you hold back until the end? Do you go to the sale every week? Every other week? Just when you're either selling or buying? Whenever it's raining?) Do you creep-feed your calves, or is it just Mother's milk and grass? When the bull is "on-duty" do you slip him a little feed to help keep him going?

Thanks for a really good post.
Cuz

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB - Excellent post, while I might not agree 100% with everything you said, I sure do agree with A LOT of it. I think you've hit a lot of good points for beginners, journeymen and long-timers. Your point about being grass farmers is so dead-on for many of us (feedlot operators excluded). Sometimes, when I get to fretting over the cows body condition I can't help but think about your "Grass Farmer" comment. Your 6- weight comment is still just a goal for some of us.

Now a couple of questions. When you talk about buying 3-in1's and heavy breds are you having your best success at the salebarn or are you going to breeder sales? If you're buying at the salebarn do you go by anything other than the "look" of the cow or do you try to find out who's cow it is? Can you describe your "buying at the salebarn" technique? (How long do you spend out in the barn observing them in the pen before you decide who you like? Do you try to make the first low bid when she comes in the ring or do you hold back until the end? Do you go to the sale every week? Every other week? Just when you're either selling or buying? Whenever it's raining?) Do you creep-feed your calves, or is it just Mother's milk and grass? When the bull is "on-duty" do you slip him a little feed to help keep him going?

Thanks for a really good post.
Cuz

I do buy from the salebarn as it is not an evil place. I attend sales regularly and know most of the regulars. I usually get there early and stand over the loading chute. Not uncomon to holler down hey Joe why are you selling that good looking heavy and get a reply back dang kid wrecked his car or something went wrong and I need some cash. There are some I don't know and it gets back to your eye for cattle. I have been burned at the barn but overall I have been very sucessful with my picks. I also attend production sales like in Crockett or Navasota at the salebarn. As far as creep there is none and no feed for the bull this is a grass operation. I do fertilize my pastures, my pastures are feed, you have to put back can't just take.
The trick is picking the right breeds for your enviroment that maximize the hybred vigor on your grass.
Yes I spend a lot of time at the salebarn. This is a wealth of info on prices what the buyers are looking forin your area I view the knowledge from the sale barn as priceless.
You can look at the older cow at the barn see how she travels, look at the calf and udder and tell if she is a heavy milker high maintainece cow as well as the growth of the calf. What you can't tell is that she doesn't drop a calf but every 15 months.

 

[aplusmnt]

Before you go further, what was your profit last year? What kind of numbers are we talking about? $1K, $10K, $100K? The reason I ask, since I am a newbie, there is no need to heed advice from someone that doesn't show a profit, especially, one that is trying to show how to profit from cattle.

Its not hard to know who on here has or does make money off of cattle. Just pay attention, no one needs to show you their tax forms. If you can't figure that out then you probably should not be raising cattle.

Any breed can be crossed with another breed. The options are identical.

Some of the most talented breeders are the new breeders as they don't have all the garbage in the brain.

Tell me how you get a red baldy out of a Black Angus then? Caustics point was with a red cow or specifically a Hereford you can go directions that you can not go with black. Once you go black you can not go back, unless you wait on a recessive gene and its percentages to catch up.

None of the most talented breeders are new. No Newbie is going to surpass years of experience and if anything they have more garbage in their brains, they are more likely to buy into the trends of the moment, that the old timer has already seen come and go.

A cow will adapt fine from one area to the next, specifically from Canada to the southern US.

You must have never had a cow come from Bermuda pastures to fescue then! Or one from the corn belt to fescue.

Cattle generally are offspring from the same environment from the same area and because of that selective breeding might better suit that area vs another. Even amongst breeds breeders might select different traits such as milk production to suit their environment better. So cattle from one region will most likely suit your needs more than from some far off region.

Ask for the poster's proof on this one as I have yet to see evidence. For example, what type of frame is more profitable, a 5 frame or a 5.5 frame? Sounds like he slinging a gun from the hip after drinking a slug of George Dickel.[/i]

There has been many studies done that show the mathematical proof that moderate framed cattle are more times than not more profitable than large framed. It has to do with the number of head you can run to the acre. Just do a google search and you can find it, I am not in mood to do your work for you.

Buying 3n1's or Heavies gives you more time to search for the best bull for your operation.

Baloney! Time is constant. It may seem like you have more time. In reality, derivatives are all calculated on time and risk. As target time shortens, risk is variable.

How can you say a beginner that is starting out does not have more time if he buys a few 3 in 1's? If march of 2007 the beginner begins his herd, he buys all 3 in 1's then he does not need a bull till around may of 2008 14 months later. He has 14 months to get going and then purchase the bull. If he buys Pairs then he has 1 or 2 months to get the bull bought.


I think from your post we can tell who's advice should be avoided and who is full of baloney

 

[Sir Loin]

Now the truth is out in the open.

As far as creep there is none and no feed for the bull this is a grass operation.

"this is a grass operation"
If you had said that in the first place you could have saved us all a lot of time and aggravation.
If that is the type of operation some newbies want to start fine. CB is absolutely right "First learn to farm grass."
Then learn to control the weather if you "want to raise cattle and be profitable".
And if you really want to maximize your profit have a plan B or go bust when the first drought or bad winter hits you right between the eyes.

To each his own.
If you are happy with the money you make by running a grass only operation, fine, that's your decision but I really don't believe you are operating at your full potential.
Have you ever done it any other way?
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Donald,
Re:

he does not need a bull till around may of 2008 14 months later. He has 14 months to get going and then purchase the bull.

How do you figure that?
If she has one on the ground and one in the oven the time is 10 months until she rebreeds. And if she is already 3 months gone the time is cut to 7 months.
I'm using 9 months to calve and 1 month to recycle.

Re:

If he buys Pairs then he has 1 or 2 months to get the bull bought.

Hummmm?
If the calf is on the ground and is over 30 days old, the cow is open and he needs a bull now.
SL

 

[HerefordSire]

aplusmnt...

Sounds to me like you are out of your league. Sure you want me to respond? The reason I ask.....knowledge usually can be gained from disagreements in philosphy like you are encouraging....I am unsure whether I should should reply intelligently as I don't believe you intend to mislead newbies.

 

[KMacGinley]

Herefordsire: I disagree with you in total. Take care :cboy:

 

[KMacGinley]

Nicely Done CB. I would add, that having a headgate and a good corral is a must before the first animal hits the grass. Don't take care. Mac.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Nicely Done CB. I would add, that having a headgate and a good corral is a must before the first animal hits the grass.

Absolutely. Or, atleast, some type of medina gate system. There are mechanics required to maintain pasture, fencing, and to maintain cattle. A cow in trouble needs help now. I have known folks who patiently baited cows into trailers. That doesn't work when a cow needs immediate help.

CB should right a book. I'd buy a copy for sure. Maybe two books. I'd like a copy of Salebarn 101. Grandaddy could spot anything wrong with a cow with a glance. I don't have an eye like that. I look and look. When the cow is cheap, not much bidding is going on, and I don't see something wrong, I find myself second guessing. I sit through sales just to learn.

 

[Proverbs 12:10]

Nicely Done CB. I would add, that having a headgate and a good corral is a must before the first animal hits the grass.

I don't have an eye like that. I look and look. When the cow is cheap, not much bidding is going on, and I don't see something wrong, I find myself second guessing. I sit through sales just to learn.

Whew! Now I feel better. About the time I fashion myself as a real cattleman I'll go to a sale and feel the same way...glad I'm not the only one.

 

[rockridgecattle]

i would like to add something to CB's post which I'm thankful for the reminder of what farming is. "Cow's work for us".
Maybe what i am to add is wrong but my opinion anyway.

We as farmers need to look at the whole picture when it comes to herd health.
Vaccinations...yes
Treat sickness...yes
Treat repetative sickness on the same animal...no.
If they haven't responed to the first course of treatment (weeks worth or what have you) or relapsed we need to assess the viablity of the animal.
If after the first couple of days there is no improvement in a treatment then a new treatment is required.
But if after a course of treatment has transpired and the animal has not responded or relapsed then a hard decision should be made.
We can't keep animals because they are a "pet" or from our favorite cow. Or because they are cute.
Decisions must be made on the genetics and what we expect a cow to do for us.
We have to make decisions based on what this cow can do for us.
Having said that...
I would be willing to keep a first time calver if she did not perform up to snuff the first year, but i would also find a new replacement to take her place if she fails the second year.
Treat an animal for a problem evalute the effectiveness of the medication after the first couple of doses because improvement should be seen by then and if not re evaluate the treatment ( try a different drug) but if that failed the animal is on it's own or well you know what i mean.
Too may times on our farm we have fought the losing battle only to have seen the expense of treating to cost us more in the long run.
make no mistake though i will do almost anything to give a newborn a fighting chance...epinephrine, dophram (SP), extra colostrum if needed, help getting up to suck, vitamin shots, treat for sickness but there are limits to this as well.
Make sense???

 

[Caustic Burno]

Very good thread for the beginner going here, with a few exceptions. This is the best cattle discussion we have had in a long time.
Boogie as far as the salebarn goes I just don't know how to explain it. I am not near as eloquent as Doc, heck I haven't ever conquered the English language.
Some people are born to play short stop, I can just see the shortcomings of old Belle in the ring.

 

[Stepper]

Well i read through all of this and it is a very interesting & helpful thread. I am a newbie and have alot to learn. Although i have learned alot already. The more i get into cattle the main thing i have learned so far is just how much i dont know.

You know this may sound stupid but what really got me into cattle was my desire to grow grass. ( or to grow hay for our horses ) I was raised in farm country and have helped work in a little of it all. ( Bucking hay, rowe crops, gardening, timber stand improvement etc....., ) So i guess that is where i developed some of my interest in farming.

But at this point in my cattle farming. I enjoy growing grass as much if not more than i do the cattle. I am trying to buy 160 acres. And the main reason i want it is because of all the things that i can see that can be done with it. It has a creek that runs right through the middle of it that is perfect for irrigation. This creek is about 15' to 20' across and 4' to 5' deep during the dryest years. And the soil on this place is unbeleaveible. I bet you can go anywhere on it and dig 5' deep and still be in top soil. It is just unreal. It is also has two good ponds on it. And best of all it sits right in the heart of nothing but cattle farms for several miles in any direction. No worry about a cow getting out on a road and getting hit.

The way alot you guys fell about breeding cattle is about how i feel about growing grass. I like to see just how clean and good of grass i can grow. And just how many tons per acre that i can grow.

But now i have to do something with the grass that i grow. And i am starting to get that same disire to grow the most profitible herd of cattle that i can.

When i got into cows, heck i did not really know what i was doing. I just mimiced or tried to mimic what i saw the majority of the other cattle farmers doing. And that was to buy black cattle and try to wean off 6 weight calfs at 205 days.

But now i can see Caustics point. If you want to be successful in cattle. You have to be able to follow the market. And also like alot of other cattlemen have pointed out again and again on here. You have to know what to look for in cattle to know a good cow/bull when you are looking at it. ( just because the thing is live and breathing and will produce a calf once a year is not enough.)

That knowledge is what separates the cattlemen from us newbies or want a be cattlemen. When i first came to this forum. I thought that some of the members like Caustic and others just always got up on the wrong side of the bed every morning and took it out on us newbies. But i am starting to finally see the light. They know what they are talking about when it comes to cattle.

My self i need to learn more about what to look for in cattle. So if i am understanding this post right. If you run red herfords you can cross them with a black bull and throw black calfs ? Which right now that is what the market is calling for right ? Or i could cross my black cows with a herford bull and raise black baldies ?

 

[Stepper]

When i was kid growing up. Herfords was most of everyone raised arround here. But now there are very few people who raise them.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Angus are on top right now due to some wonderful management and marketing but this will change that is the one thing about this business. I have seen Herf's Chars( people where actually going to prison smuggling them in) Brimmers Simms have there day. I am not knocking anyones black herd but if the market changes to anything other than black your options are very slim. The only fallback you have is the black baldie that has been the true constant in this business.

 

[Caustic Burno]

If you run red herfords you can cross them with a black bull and throw black calfs ? Which right now that is what the market is calling for right ? Or i could cross my black cows with a herford bull and raise black baldies ?

A black bull on Herfs will throw a motley face black calf which will ring the bell at the salebarn. The second cross you are correct on and it will ring the bell as well.
A herf cow give you some bang as well in crossing with the continentals.
Some of the best calfs I ever saw were from a Simm/hereford
and you have the option of Red or Black here.
And a Char/herf cross is hard to beat the High yellow calf's here consistantly bring top dollar and they have the pounds to go with it.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Whew! Now I feel better. About the time I fashion myself as a real cattleman I'll go to a sale and feel the same way...glad I'm not the only one.

Folks

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. Probably most buyers have those same feelings at various times. I know I do. Watching, studying and asking questions are good ways to learn anything new. However, like learning to swim, you learn the most when you actually get in the water and start splashing around. Most were not born with an eye for cattle but had to learn by splashing around. Just like learning to swim the key is not jumping in too deep before learning the basics. I think the more salebarn splashing around you do, the better results you will see, while your eye and confidence will improve.

I, for one, appreciate your positive contributions to these discussions.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Stepper]

Well right now i am still tring to build a herd. I have a black angus bull just a little over 2 years old. I have nine 3-an-1 black commerical cows that are close to 3 years old. Their first calfs will wean at 205 days about September. Then i have 2 black heifers that should be bred now also that are due to calf in Febuary 08. ( the cows/heifers look to be angus/limo cross.)

My original plans were to keep adding more black cattle to my herd. I have been tring to get additional leases and buy more land to run cattle on. And both are looking real promising.

One lease that i will find out about in September is from a fella who has run cattle all of his life. He is 76 years old now and is going to retire due to health problems. But he has 65 head that he is going to sell then. I am not sure what breed of cattle they are but if any are herfords and i get that lease. I am sure going to give them a serious looking over.

But regardless what happens with that deal. I think now i am going to run a mixed herd. My next dozen or so head of cattle will be herfords.

Caustic i am glad that you posted this thread. It has really give me something to think about and showed me some things that i need to start doing different. Thanks alot ! ;-)

 

[aplusmnt]

Donald,
Re:

he does not need a bull till around may of 2008 14 months later. He has 14 months to get going and then purchase the bull.

How do you figure that?
If she has one on the ground and one in the oven the time is 10 months until she rebreeds. And if she is already 3 months gone the time is cut to 7 months.
I'm using 9 months to calve and 1 month to recycle.

Re:

If he buys Pairs then he has 1 or 2 months to get the bull bought.

Hummmm?
If the calf is on the ground and is over 30 days old, the cow is open and he needs a bull now.
SL

Second time I have made mathematical errors in last couple months. 14 months should have read more like 10 or 11 months for the 3 in 1. And immediately or up to a couple months on the pair depending on how old the calf is.

But the principle still applies, Caustics point that for a beginner a 3 in 1 allows them some breathing room to purchase a bull after the cow purchases.

 

[Bez>]

CB you take those darned worthless Herfs and kill them.

Everyone here on this board knows you do not need one of them old Herfs to make money. They are subject to pink eye, cancer eye and their bags blow out when they hit 10 years of age. 8)

Better to go out there and buy good expensive registered stock and sell those bull calves to people who want to keep black cattle running into the chute for big bucks.

Besides you'll make more money on Holstiens.

Now that I am done fussing - I been raising herfs for years - I can follow the colour trends all day long. Only thing that nearly beat us was BSE. What colour calf you want next year? Grab the right bull and you can do it in one season.

Cheap cows, easy keeping and able to go to any colour trend. Good bulls that work on grass.

Why'd you go and spoil my secret? Now everyone might want to try it.

Bez>