aplusmnt
Well-known member
HerefordSire":1c954slw said:
Might be best you do not respond! Discussion is going along just fine!
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- Thread starter Caustic Burno
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Might be best you do not respond! Discussion is going along just fine!
aplusmnt
Well-known member
I would like to find some F1 Red Angus x Hereford cows. Have not seen any around here, but sure seems like it could be the way to go. You have all the positive points Caustic mentions but you add Hybrid Vigor to the equation.
Jogeephus
Well-known member
HerefordSire":tgfma9r6 said:
I believe the point is a proven track record.
Frankly, I know of only one younger breeder who sells the whole gambit. Since he's kin folk, I know him well and know he knows how to work the numbers to his benefit. I assure you he'd sell a rats arse hole to a blind man for a wedding band.
Seems he's too busy trying to make a killing instead of just making a living.
TheBullLady
Well-known member
I think that producers that are thinking about getting into the registered market need to keep in mind that one of the best reasons for doing so is that you can tract bloodlines, pedigrees, and EPD's within a breed, which makes your breeding and marketing decisions better.
Most of the registered breeders I know cull harder than a commercial man.
Most of the registered breeders I know cull harder than a commercial man.
aplusmnt
Well-known member
dun":30lxjnyj said:
If you was looking to produce this F1 cross would you go with the Hereford as the cow or the Red Angus?
aplusmnt":2att3ds0 said:
Depends on the cow side that you can get the best quality from. We've done it both ways. Using AI for the bull side as long as the quilty is in the cow it's hard to go wrong whichever way you go.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
Proverbs 12:10":37z3zieb said:backhoeboogie":37z3zieb said:
Whew! Now I feel better. About the time I fashion myself as a real cattleman I'll go to a sale and feel the same way...glad I'm not the only one.
It is not so bad when I am buying for myself. When it gets bad is when someone wants me to go with them because they trust my judgement, :lol: . Shucks.
I have known people who had the eye. Grandaddy was excellent. I try. I simply can't spot things immediately the way some folks can. There are people who can take a quick look at a dozen head and tell you practically eveything about them - what's wrong, what can be fixed and what can't.
backhoeboogie":3s7e66aj said:
I know how you feel. What was really ugly was a month or so ago a friend of mine drug me along to a goat sale to help him pick out some does. I haven;t worked seriously with goats since 1980 and those were dairy not meat goats. He did end up with some pretty decent does though.
Earl Thigpen
Well-known member
Fine report as usual, CB. I wanted to tell you this before but the subject got locked.
aplusmnt":79ozsvv4 said:
Haskell Hammontree, a long time Hereford breeder, is doing producing that cross here in OK. Give him a call.
http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/feb04/ ... market.CFM
CUZ
Well-known member
CB - Thanks for getting back to me with some really good answers. I've looked at some of those salebarn cows and thought "Nobody's bidding this cow up to what I'd expect, so what am I missing?" Or, "wow, everyone seems to really like this girl, so what am I not seeing?" And of course since I've obviously missed something, I'd better just sit on my billfold another week and hopefully learn a little more before I take the plunge. (Ain't second guessing yourself just great?)
Anyway, if you don't mind sharing, after you get those calves to day 205 what have you found works for you? Do you wean them 45 days on grass only? Put them on welfare for 45 days? Trailer wean them on the way to the salebarn?
If you decide to keep some heifers, do you do anything "special" for them? (I'm thinking you don't.)
In your Texas environment do you have to put out much in the way of mineral supplements? Around here we have to put out the High Mag during parts of the year, either that or be prepared to lose some that you shouldn't have.
Again, thanks for a really good post.
Cuz
Anyway, if you don't mind sharing, after you get those calves to day 205 what have you found works for you? Do you wean them 45 days on grass only? Put them on welfare for 45 days? Trailer wean them on the way to the salebarn?
If you decide to keep some heifers, do you do anything "special" for them? (I'm thinking you don't.)
In your Texas environment do you have to put out much in the way of mineral supplements? Around here we have to put out the High Mag during parts of the year, either that or be prepared to lose some that you shouldn't have.
Again, thanks for a really good post.
Cuz
aplusmnt
Well-known member
Frankie":djaqi9ly said:
Thanks for the lead! Interesting article to read. Sounds like this guy knows what he is doing!
His take on Herefords
"Hereford cattle have played an important part in the development of the beef industry. Their ability to adapt to many different environments and remain productive is their strongest asset. Couple this with the fact that these genetics will fit almost any crossbreeding system and these cattle are an industry staple."
forageconverter
Well-known member
A few more questions on grass:
I know it would vary by region, but how many days of the year do you try to provide standing forage for a 1,000 to 1,200 lb cow?
How many pounds of grass do you believe a cow will eat and waste per day in a continuous, rotational, or intensive grazing method?
Besides costs of fertilizer and brush-hogging (and property taxes), what other costs do you figure in growing a pound of grass? Such as, do you charge what you otherwise could have rented the land out for?
What percentage of a cow's body weight should the calf's 205-day weight be, when raised just on grass and no creep?
What do you consider an 'acceptable to good' daily weight gain for a weaned calf on grass only?
I know it would vary by region, but how many days of the year do you try to provide standing forage for a 1,000 to 1,200 lb cow?
How many pounds of grass do you believe a cow will eat and waste per day in a continuous, rotational, or intensive grazing method?
Besides costs of fertilizer and brush-hogging (and property taxes), what other costs do you figure in growing a pound of grass? Such as, do you charge what you otherwise could have rented the land out for?
What percentage of a cow's body weight should the calf's 205-day weight be, when raised just on grass and no creep?
What do you consider an 'acceptable to good' daily weight gain for a weaned calf on grass only?
HerefordSire
Well-known member
Alas truth! This post may help a newbie from being misguided. Anyone want to make a copy of this post just in case I get ostracized from disagreeing and providing a level playing field opinion?
I agree, but just becasue they havent been selling seed stock for ten years doesnt mean they arent cattlemen or know what they are doing.
When I broke in to the oil fields as a youngster, I didn't know squat and began as a worm. Worms get abused as they are usually selected to do the dirty work. I listened very closely and only spoke when spoken to. Within a month or two, I became a chain hand. Within a week I was the best chain hand anyone every saw and I listened very closely and only spoke when spoken to. To make a long story short, I worked by way to the top in a short time period including being a derrick hand, driller, and company man by listening very closely and only spoke when spoken to.
Trust in another person is what is most important, not the number of years in business. There are different levels of trust when it comes to money. If I am a newbie and $500,000 is sitting in my bank account and I am on the verge of buying cattle to place on my land, it can be very dangerous to read someone's opinion and get mislead. I have no ulterior disguised agenda. If I did, I would be trying to get favorable comments. Instead, the comments I received help disguise the risk of a newbie.
I didnt respond to CB's post, because I understood what he was talking about and the point he was trying to make.
I understood what the poster was talking about also and some other newbie may not have. If you are a newbie, like me, you cannot reply to an old fashion veteran cattleman without being insulted by other posters…like I am going to make a copy of this post just in case the post gets deleted as if I will be barred for life from posting on this internet message board.
His point was, at least the way I took it, a newbie should deal with an established entity. That seed stock producer didntt hang around for ten years chasing changing idealized stats or taking advantage of his customers. A newbie is going to have to relly on the goodwill of the producer more than an experienced cattlemen due to knowledge base. He has more chance of being taken advantage of by a flash in the pan producer over an established one. Not to say there arent good young seedstock producers or old established criminals portraying seedstock producers, but I would say the odds favor one over the other.
There are newbies that are ultra conservative and aggressive gambling veteran cattlemen. There are many veterans, including cattlemen, which take advantage of newbies, especially on internet message boards. I am a newbie and I didn't rely on any veteran because I don't trust anyone with my finances. I relied on my own sense and dollars. I earn my keep. I paid the piper. I saved the money. I don't see why all other newbies can't do the same and work their way up from branding to breeding just like I did and just like I am doing.
Basically the whole post was his opinion, which he then explained. He was just giving general advice, advice that works for him which he felt might help others. If you try to disect it in black and white of course it is going to fall short, just as any advice anyone else might give. There are just to many variable.
Fall short? That took a lot of courage to write that. I admire your courage and degree of ethics. The general advice is wrong for some newbies and maybe several veterans also that cannot discern the untruths and or biased opinions. What I am concerned about is someone getting hurt by wrong recommendations without having enough information to make a recommendation.
I agree, but just becasue they havent been selling seed stock for ten years doesnt mean they arent cattlemen or know what they are doing.
When I broke in to the oil fields as a youngster, I didn't know squat and began as a worm. Worms get abused as they are usually selected to do the dirty work. I listened very closely and only spoke when spoken to. Within a month or two, I became a chain hand. Within a week I was the best chain hand anyone every saw and I listened very closely and only spoke when spoken to. To make a long story short, I worked by way to the top in a short time period including being a derrick hand, driller, and company man by listening very closely and only spoke when spoken to.
Trust in another person is what is most important, not the number of years in business. There are different levels of trust when it comes to money. If I am a newbie and $500,000 is sitting in my bank account and I am on the verge of buying cattle to place on my land, it can be very dangerous to read someone's opinion and get mislead. I have no ulterior disguised agenda. If I did, I would be trying to get favorable comments. Instead, the comments I received help disguise the risk of a newbie.
I didnt respond to CB's post, because I understood what he was talking about and the point he was trying to make.
I understood what the poster was talking about also and some other newbie may not have. If you are a newbie, like me, you cannot reply to an old fashion veteran cattleman without being insulted by other posters…like I am going to make a copy of this post just in case the post gets deleted as if I will be barred for life from posting on this internet message board.
His point was, at least the way I took it, a newbie should deal with an established entity. That seed stock producer didntt hang around for ten years chasing changing idealized stats or taking advantage of his customers. A newbie is going to have to relly on the goodwill of the producer more than an experienced cattlemen due to knowledge base. He has more chance of being taken advantage of by a flash in the pan producer over an established one. Not to say there arent good young seedstock producers or old established criminals portraying seedstock producers, but I would say the odds favor one over the other.
There are newbies that are ultra conservative and aggressive gambling veteran cattlemen. There are many veterans, including cattlemen, which take advantage of newbies, especially on internet message boards. I am a newbie and I didn't rely on any veteran because I don't trust anyone with my finances. I relied on my own sense and dollars. I earn my keep. I paid the piper. I saved the money. I don't see why all other newbies can't do the same and work their way up from branding to breeding just like I did and just like I am doing.
Basically the whole post was his opinion, which he then explained. He was just giving general advice, advice that works for him which he felt might help others. If you try to disect it in black and white of course it is going to fall short, just as any advice anyone else might give. There are just to many variable.
Fall short? That took a lot of courage to write that. I admire your courage and degree of ethics. The general advice is wrong for some newbies and maybe several veterans also that cannot discern the untruths and or biased opinions. What I am concerned about is someone getting hurt by wrong recommendations without having enough information to make a recommendation.
OP
OP
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
A few more questions on grass:
I know it would vary by region, but how many days of the year do you try to provide standing forage for a 1,000 to 1,200 lb cow?
How many pounds of grass do you believe a cow will eat and waste per day in a continuous, rotational, or intensive grazing method?
Besides costs of fertilizer and brush-hogging (and property taxes), what other costs do you figure in growing a pound of grass? Such as, do you charge what you otherwise could have rented the land out for?
What percentage of a cow's body weight should the calf's 205-day weight be, when raised just on grass and no creep?
What do you consider an 'acceptable to good' daily weight gain for a weaned calf on grass only?
I can only answer your first question based on my area we have only truly about sixty days we have to supply hay in a typical winter.
On cost my calculations come to a dollar to about 1.07 a day to keep old Belle this is fertilizer,fuel,meds taxes, fencing etc.
I look for a cow to wean a calf here at 45 % body weight this goal is harder to achieve in the summer than winter as our winter temps are more optimum for calf growth. I wean earlier in the summer than winter due to the heat you are lucky to be putting 2 pounds a day on a calf here.
I look for 2.5 pounds a day your trying to put 515 pounds on an 85 pound calf in 205 days.
You can satisfy a cows needs on 3 pounds a day now you need another 27 pounds to fill her up.
CB - Thanks for getting back to me with some really good answers. I've looked at some of those salebarn cows and thought "Nobody's bidding this cow up to what I'd expect, so what am I missing?" Or, "wow, everyone seems to really like this girl, so what am I not seeing?" And of course since I've obviously missed something, I'd better just sit on my billfold another week and hopefully learn a little more before I take the plunge. (Ain't second guessing yourself just great?)
Anyway, if you don't mind sharing, after you get those calves to day 205 what have you found works for you? Do you wean them 45 days on grass only? Put them on welfare for 45 days? Trailer wean them on the way to the salebarn?
If you decide to keep some heifers, do you do anything "special" for them? (I'm thinking you don't.)
In your Texas environment do you have to put out much in the way of mineral supplements? Around here we have to put out the High Mag during parts of the year, either that or be prepared to lose some that you shouldn't have.
Again, thanks for a really good post.
Cuz
This is a controversial subject for most but here we calf year around this does not fit well with most management plans.
If I had a crystal ball that would insure that I would get enough quality hay put up I would produce only fall calf's here as it is much smarter and easier to have one calving season. A wet cow will require an additional 10 pounds of quality hay a day in the winter to carry that little leach and grow it off in the winter. That's a lot of hay. We have mild winters and hot summers our optimum growing season is fall and winter this presents a problem on carrying wet cows through the winter and having enough hay to do so. You achieve a better daily weight gain in the winter of 2.5 to 3.0 pounds a day. Here is the catch your hay has to be feed or you are really going to pull the cow. Summertime calf's I will typically wean at 120 to 150 days as milk production starts down and growth really slows on the little leaches.
Being that this is year around I start pulling calves at six months and place them in a weaning pasture until I have a trailer load so some calves go to market at 6 months some are seven or a little older.
I go through a ton of minerals in the summer with an increased iodine supplement to combat hoof rot and ringworm in this super wet enviroment.
There is no Welfare feeding cows out of a sack is like putting a second mortgage on your home. This gets back to being a gras farmer first and growing grass that is actually feed.
I know it would vary by region, but how many days of the year do you try to provide standing forage for a 1,000 to 1,200 lb cow?
How many pounds of grass do you believe a cow will eat and waste per day in a continuous, rotational, or intensive grazing method?
Besides costs of fertilizer and brush-hogging (and property taxes), what other costs do you figure in growing a pound of grass? Such as, do you charge what you otherwise could have rented the land out for?
What percentage of a cow's body weight should the calf's 205-day weight be, when raised just on grass and no creep?
What do you consider an 'acceptable to good' daily weight gain for a weaned calf on grass only?
I can only answer your first question based on my area we have only truly about sixty days we have to supply hay in a typical winter.
On cost my calculations come to a dollar to about 1.07 a day to keep old Belle this is fertilizer,fuel,meds taxes, fencing etc.
I look for a cow to wean a calf here at 45 % body weight this goal is harder to achieve in the summer than winter as our winter temps are more optimum for calf growth. I wean earlier in the summer than winter due to the heat you are lucky to be putting 2 pounds a day on a calf here.
I look for 2.5 pounds a day your trying to put 515 pounds on an 85 pound calf in 205 days.
You can satisfy a cows needs on 3 pounds a day now you need another 27 pounds to fill her up.
CB - Thanks for getting back to me with some really good answers. I've looked at some of those salebarn cows and thought "Nobody's bidding this cow up to what I'd expect, so what am I missing?" Or, "wow, everyone seems to really like this girl, so what am I not seeing?" And of course since I've obviously missed something, I'd better just sit on my billfold another week and hopefully learn a little more before I take the plunge. (Ain't second guessing yourself just great?)
Anyway, if you don't mind sharing, after you get those calves to day 205 what have you found works for you? Do you wean them 45 days on grass only? Put them on welfare for 45 days? Trailer wean them on the way to the salebarn?
If you decide to keep some heifers, do you do anything "special" for them? (I'm thinking you don't.)
In your Texas environment do you have to put out much in the way of mineral supplements? Around here we have to put out the High Mag during parts of the year, either that or be prepared to lose some that you shouldn't have.
Again, thanks for a really good post.
Cuz
This is a controversial subject for most but here we calf year around this does not fit well with most management plans.
If I had a crystal ball that would insure that I would get enough quality hay put up I would produce only fall calf's here as it is much smarter and easier to have one calving season. A wet cow will require an additional 10 pounds of quality hay a day in the winter to carry that little leach and grow it off in the winter. That's a lot of hay. We have mild winters and hot summers our optimum growing season is fall and winter this presents a problem on carrying wet cows through the winter and having enough hay to do so. You achieve a better daily weight gain in the winter of 2.5 to 3.0 pounds a day. Here is the catch your hay has to be feed or you are really going to pull the cow. Summertime calf's I will typically wean at 120 to 150 days as milk production starts down and growth really slows on the little leaches.
Being that this is year around I start pulling calves at six months and place them in a weaning pasture until I have a trailer load so some calves go to market at 6 months some are seven or a little older.
I go through a ton of minerals in the summer with an increased iodine supplement to combat hoof rot and ringworm in this super wet enviroment.
There is no Welfare feeding cows out of a sack is like putting a second mortgage on your home. This gets back to being a gras farmer first and growing grass that is actually feed.
OP
OP
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Angus/Brangus":agxg0dzl said:
The grass of East Texas is Bahia. Are you talking about Clarks Circle C Hereford Ranch.
Absolutely one of the best there every was family was running Polled herefords since the 1920's. This is no flash in the pan breeder. My friend is no longer producing bulls for sale due to age, his daughter has taken on a lot of the ranch management and know producing commercial calfs. He is still running Hereford bulls on a select few head.
OP
OP
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Angus/Brangus":3e9upbr0 said:
Yes you improve what you have to maximize growth and production units. You don't try and change the grass you find the cow that works best on your grass.
Let me add I have tried lots of grasses to improve over bahia all have been failures. You just can't fight mother nature I have finally gotten that through my hard head.
OP
OP
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
For the people that cuss bahia can you run a unit per acre and not be overgrazing? I can , I choose not to operate that way in the event of drought I don't like being robbed.
Can you bale your pastures? I can and do. It has pulled my butt out of the fire in drought years. You can not run your operations for the perfect year you have to plan for the extremes. Coastal is great grass, if it won't grow as well in your enviroment it is worthless.
I am not saying bahia its the best grass its the best grass we have.
And being a grass farmer first is still rule one no matter your grass.
Can you bale your pastures? I can and do. It has pulled my butt out of the fire in drought years. You can not run your operations for the perfect year you have to plan for the extremes. Coastal is great grass, if it won't grow as well in your enviroment it is worthless.
I am not saying bahia its the best grass its the best grass we have.
And being a grass farmer first is still rule one no matter your grass.
Re:
So you do supplemental feeding, right? I thought so.
Are there any other extremes you plan for that would cause you to supplement your grass only operation?
Do you provide salt and minerals, or vitamin?
Have you ever tried feeding by-products which are cheaper then hay?
Where I'm at we plan for drought, winter, births, early frost, late springs etc etc etc.
SL
OH another little unknown fact now trickles out.
So you do supplemental feeding, right? I thought so.
Are there any other extremes you plan for that would cause you to supplement your grass only operation?
Do you provide salt and minerals, or vitamin?
Have you ever tried feeding by-products which are cheaper then hay?
Where I'm at we plan for drought, winter, births, early frost, late springs etc etc etc.
SL
