HerefordSire
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HerefordSire":2mew3dp2 said:
If the heart issue is correct, anyone have an idea which 1/8 is responsible? Any occurances of other progeny having similar heart issues derived from anyother of the bolded animals?
Remitall Super Duty 42S
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If the heart issue is correct, anyone have an idea which 1/8 is responsible? Any occurances of other progeny having similar heart issues derived from anyother of the bolded animals?
Herefords.US
Well-known member
HerefordSire":255tgyt4 said:
I'm betting if it was genetic related, it came from the top half of the pedigree, since it's this bull's sire that was affected.
But since 517 is in the pedigree, let's just blame him or his ancestors. :banana:
George
rocket2222
Well-known member
Lets see now, we have Remitall bred bulls with testicle problems, foot or hoof problems, and now heart problems. And the common denominator is [round of applause please] :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: [thank you].......... 24H
HerefordSire
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redfornow":18rxfitq said:
That would explain why she sold for only $45K. The next question would be...are there similarity issues with 512 her sire or 139 her dam?
herefordchick
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Anyone recall what the reasons for "Intensifier"s untimely young death...........................other than to increase his market value?
Seems like he is related to Catalina somewhere back also if I recall
Seems like he is related to Catalina somewhere back also if I recall
greenwillowhereford II
Well-known member
Since no one else has tackled adjusted BW, I will. The AHA's "wonderful" computer generated EPD system adjusts the BW of a cow's calves upward until about the third one, presumably because heifers typically have smaller calves due to the competition for nutrition within their own body.
For instance, one of my cows went two weeks overdue as a heifer, and unassisted and trouble free calved out a 95# bull while I was at work. (She bred back within days after the bull was turned back in, when her calf was not over two months old.) The AHA adjusted that first calf's BW to 100#. The next year, this time only a week overdue, a full brother was born, and weighed less than the first calf had. I don't particularly have a lot of confidence in the BW adjustment.
This year, a heifer had a 77# bull, and they adjusted him to 84#.
They also adjust weaning weight. A heifer's calves will be adjusted about 50# heavier, and the second calf will have about 30# added.
For instance, one of my cows went two weeks overdue as a heifer, and unassisted and trouble free calved out a 95# bull while I was at work. (She bred back within days after the bull was turned back in, when her calf was not over two months old.) The AHA adjusted that first calf's BW to 100#. The next year, this time only a week overdue, a full brother was born, and weighed less than the first calf had. I don't particularly have a lot of confidence in the BW adjustment.
This year, a heifer had a 77# bull, and they adjusted him to 84#.
They also adjust weaning weight. A heifer's calves will be adjusted about 50# heavier, and the second calf will have about 30# added.
greenwillowhereford II
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BTW, I have never heard of any heart problems whatsoever among Feltons cattle, and I have some Feltons influence in my own herd.
Brandonm22
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rocket2222":fxtts614 said:
I am not defending 24H but a lot of those "problems" could also be side effects of too much high energy concentrate too young.. I would like to see some comparisonbetween range descendents(if any) and shown progeny.
HerefordSire
Well-known member
Brandonm22":yo0wlpdx said:
I would like to see someone cross 24H with 122L in an attempt to surface any potential risk so we know. Then do the same think with Pounder, Olympian, Nation Wide, Route 66, etc.
rocket2222
Well-known member
redfornow":2m9tpanx said:
You know I used to think I smoked a pipe just like old Sherlock, Well, that was until someone pointed out, thats not exactly what they meant in the history books, when they said he had a bad habit of constantly smoking a pipe. :shock:
rocket2222
Well-known member
herefordchick":3qr4dc9p said:
WHOOO, forgot about him. One of 24H's first sons, barely lasted long enough to pull semen off him. Early warning sign, Nahh, shes just having a little run of bad luck :roll: :roll:
rocket2222
Well-known member
Brandonm22":2cfkz66z said:
:lol: :lol: You don't really expect she actually had calves that got to be raised on momma's milk and grass.
Herefords.US
Well-known member
HerefordSire":3u5png42 said:
Let's see! I just spent a paltry sum of $45,000 Canadian and I'm going to risk it all by breeding the old cow back to all of her sons in an effort to make sure the cow's genetics don't have something sinister lurking there.
Yeah! Right! :dunce:
Herefords.US
Well-known member
redfornow":4062j1tv said:
Thanks for a vote of confidence, red.
I wouldn't buy a cow of the age that 24H is, pay that kind of price for her, then "waste" what likely productive time she has left trying to prove that she was indeed genetically sound. I'd be reasonably confident that she was "sound" before spending that kind of money(or 1/10th of that kind of money) on her. The indictment of 24H here has some compelling evidence, but I'm still not convinced given the number of total descendants. I think the premature death/disability of former show bulls probably has a lot more to do with how they were fed and handled, as someone else said. Currently, I only own one animal that traces to 24H, so I don't really have a big dog in this hunt.
Regarding what's best for the breed, I really have admiration for those Line 1 breeders who have addressed the IE issue, tested their cattle, and been very upfront about which cattle in their programs contained the IE gene. Most are making breeding decisions and taking measures where it'll soon be totally eliminated from their herds. There were some cattle, that sold for really high dollars just a couple of years back, that tested positive for the IE gene. It's a credit to those producers who have taken the high road for the good of the breed - regardless of the potential financial loss they may suffer.
The same thing occurred in the days after the cause of the dwarfism problem was identified. Many premium registered herds were sold for slaughter, rather than risk perpetuation of the disorder.
George
HerefordSire
Well-known member
rocket2222":1lvdg9qo said:herefordchick":1lvdg9qo said:
WHOOO, forgot about him. One of 24H's first sons, barely lasted long enough to pull semen off him. Early warning sign, Nahh, shes just having a little run of bad luck :roll: :roll:
What was the cause of Intensifier's death?
HerefordSire
Well-known member
Herefords.US":3afbn5cv said:
Someone breeding 24H to one or more of here famous sons could hit the cover off of the ball producing either a great product and tool or helping the breed discover important health information. This scenario would be more likely than if a breeder owned Olympian, or his semen, and or other sons and then try to attempt the same thing as the coverage most likely would be harder to establish without owning 24H. Also, I don't understand how one would be risking it "all". If she lived for 5 more years, she could have five natural calves and about 100 other ET calves. If we reound it off to 100 calves, then the purchase price of $45K could be averaged to about $450 per calf not counting any other fees. Sounds like to me a win-win strategy provided she is always insured against a depreciated $45K.
Herefords.US
Well-known member
HerefordSire":1stziutv said:
I'm sure someone didn't pay 45K for 24H to "help the breed discover important health information" about her. And I've tried to insure a 10 year old cow and couldn't do it. It falls beyond their standard coverage age range. So, even if you could get it, it'd be much more expensive than standard coverage.
As usual, your scenario is optimistic! If you look at actual flush records of cows that have been flushed over a long period of time, 100 ET calves from an old cow would be quite a feat, especially when you include 5 natural calves.
Can YOU point out ANY cow that has had 100 ET calves produced from her in her WHOLE lifetime? I sure don't know of one in the Hereford breed!
George
HerefordSire
Well-known member
I'm sure someone didn't pay 45K for 24H to "help the breed discover important health information" about her. And I've tried to insure a 10 year old cow and couldn't do it. It falls beyond their standard coverage age range. So, even if you could get it, it'd be much more expensive than standard coverage.
Several tissue samples taken and then frozen would be sufficient insurance. That way the normal insurance premiums can be placed toward cloning in the future. Purebred cattle insurance should become obsolete if I am correct.
As usual, your scenario is optimistic! If you look at actual flush records of cows that have been flushed over a long period of time, 100 ET calves from an old cow would be quite a feat, especially when you include 5 natural calves.
After thinking about your reply for a while, I would have to agree with you. You do have to admit it would be possible though but highly unlikely.
Can YOU point out ANY cow that has had 100 ET calves produced from her in her WHOLE lifetime? I sure don't know of one in the Hereford breed!
I can find one, if I remember to spend the time. If I don't, I wil buy you a bud lime.
George[/quote]
Several tissue samples taken and then frozen would be sufficient insurance. That way the normal insurance premiums can be placed toward cloning in the future. Purebred cattle insurance should become obsolete if I am correct.
As usual, your scenario is optimistic! If you look at actual flush records of cows that have been flushed over a long period of time, 100 ET calves from an old cow would be quite a feat, especially when you include 5 natural calves.
After thinking about your reply for a while, I would have to agree with you. You do have to admit it would be possible though but highly unlikely.
Can YOU point out ANY cow that has had 100 ET calves produced from her in her WHOLE lifetime? I sure don't know of one in the Hereford breed!
I can find one, if I remember to spend the time. If I don't, I wil buy you a bud lime.
George[/quote]
