Regulations killing business

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https://www.crtv.com/video/s2e11--fishi ... egulations I just watched the video. About 45 min long. Goes along with previous post about electronic IDs and Auditors. Very informative for anyone that doesn't know how many rules and regulations are involved in commercial fishing. Could it be coming to the livestock industry as well? Don't doubt it could happen. Well worth watching.
 

Bright Raven

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I watched some. It gets kinda boring. Note: CRTV is not unbias news - it has a strong lean to the right. Regardless, I can see that it is frustrating dealing with all that.
 
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Jogeephus":1xbqxdsz said:
I'm surprised they don't require EID tags to be placed in all the fish.
All commercial fishing boats that fish Federal Waters do have tracking devices. Some fisheries have onboard cameras that send 24/7 video back to National Marine Fisheries Service. A quick story; A few years back, a local fisherman called NMFS as required to log in his departure to go fishing. His tacking device wasnt functioning proper due to a lightning strike while at the dock. No way to know of malfunction unless NMFS tells you. It's basically just an antenna. While returning to port a few days later, he called NMFS back to log his return. NMFS realized that his transponder was showing the boat never left(because of the lightning strike). 2 car loads of NOAA agents pulled up at my dock, jumped out with pistols drawn and ran to meet the fisherman as he pulled up at fish house next door. I had no idea what was taking place at the time. You would have thought they were after a mass murderer. He done nothing illegal, no illegal fish, but they were ready to shoot him.
 

sim.-ang.king

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But just think how much safer the world is now. I mean no one ever dies anymore, or nothing ever goes wrong since the government is involved in are daily lives.
 

boondocks

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I wish we humans were smart enough to square the problem of human greed versus regulations. Basically, it's a logic problem: in the absence of laws/regs (and assuming finite resources), no single individual has enough incentive to not overfish, overhunt, use all the water you can take from an aquifer (or river), dump whatever haz waste you can...Humans being nasty greedy things, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom: if one company can pollute and not incur the cost of, eg, scrubbers on its smokestack, its competitors will go out of business unless they likewise pollute. Then you end up with places where it looks like night in the middle of the day.
I think we forget that, although it may seem that regs go overboard (and I'm sure they sometimes (even often) do), they weren't born in a vacuum, but were responses to specific problems that arose over time.
 

Bright Raven

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boondocks":2dly1w8o said:
I wish we humans were smart enough to square the problem of human greed versus regulations. Basically, it's a logic problem: in the absence of laws/regs (and assuming finite resources), no single individual has enough incentive to not overfish, overhunt, use all the water you can take from an aquifer (or river), dump whatever haz waste you can...Humans being nasty greedy things, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom: if one company can pollute and not incur the cost of, eg, scrubbers on its smokestack, its competitors will go out of business unless they likewise pollute. Then you end up with places where it looks like night in the middle of the day.
I think we forget that, although it may seem that regs go overboard (and I'm sure they sometimes (even often) do), they weren't born in a vacuum, but were responses to specific problems that arose over time.

It's the nature of the beast. Very well said. Dammed if you don't regulate, Dammed if you do. That is reality.

I like this line:

Humans being nasty greedy things, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom: if one company can pollute and not incur the cost of, eg, scrubbers on its smokestack, its competitors will go out of business unless they likewise pollute

There is some old film of early coal mining in Appalachia . It was called blast and push. What they couldn't blast over the side of a mountain, they pushed over with dozers. Made for some cheap production but the environmental damage is still haunting us to this day.
 

Caustic Burno

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boondocks":52il6am0 said:
I wish we humans were smart enough to square the problem of human greed versus regulations. Basically, it's a logic problem: in the absence of laws/regs (and assuming finite resources), no single individual has enough incentive to not overfish, overhunt, use all the water you can take from an aquifer (or river), dump whatever haz waste you can...Humans being nasty greedy things, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom: if one company can pollute and not incur the cost of, eg, scrubbers on its smokestack, its competitors will go out of business unless they likewise pollute. Then you end up with places where it looks like night in the middle of the day.
I think we forget that, although it may seem that regs go overboard (and I'm sure they sometimes (even often) do), they weren't born in a vacuum, but were responses to specific problems that arose over time.


Problem is the Gestapo EPA and bleeding heart liberals.
There is not one person I voted for on the EPA. It should be left to the states to regulate,you shouldn’t be able to purchase products from another state that you regulate out is business.
Wouldn’t take long we wouldn’t have to worry with the blue coast on either side.
 

JWBrahman

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boondocks":2gpo9y4a said:
I wish we humans were smart enough to square the problem of human greed versus regulations. Basically, it's a logic problem: in the absence of laws/regs (and assuming finite resources), no single individual has enough incentive to not overfish, overhunt, use all the water you can take from an aquifer (or river), dump whatever haz waste you can...Humans being nasty greedy things, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom: if one company can pollute and not incur the cost of, eg, scrubbers on its smokestack, its competitors will go out of business unless they likewise pollute. Then you end up with places where it looks like night in the middle of the day.
I think we forget that, although it may seem that regs go overboard (and I'm sure they sometimes (even often) do), they weren't born in a vacuum, but were responses to specific problems that arose over time.

It would be fantastic if our Dept of Ag in Louisiana was actually worried about the guy with 500 hogs dumping raw sewerage in the woods behind his trailer. But our commissioner, who is a Republican, is more worried about unlicensed hair braiding and selling cut flowers to raise money for sports teams without a license. He will spend millions to make sure half a dozen kids aren't selling cut flowers without a license.

Regulations equal revenue stream. Doing the job your paid to do doesn't seem to be a priority because NOBODY gets fired from the govt for not doing his job.
 

Farm Fence Solutions

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My biggest gripes......so far....would be the insurance industry, and commercial vehicle enforcement/DOT regulations. Once they totally run the little guys out, get ready for some hyperinflation.
 

Caustic Burno

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Farm Fence Solutions":1bbr5bh0 said:
My biggest gripes......so far....would be the insurance industry, and commercial vehicle enforcement/DOT regulations. Once they totally run the little guys out, get ready for some hyperinflation.
The monster is never satisfied can’t feed it enough.
The party of slavery that founded the KKK along with Jim Crow just changed the enslavement strategy. It is still an elitist population controlling the minions of dependence.
 

sim.-ang.king

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We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.
 

boondocks

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sim.-ang.king":1v1kwjzk said:
We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.

Not sure I'm following. If there were no laws or regs on the books, what basis would people have to stand up against, for example, a company dumping hazardous waste? Do you think a company would just willingly say Sorry and stop? How could they, if their competitors are also polluting? You must have a much more favorable view of human nature than I do...

To CB: There were originally no environmental laws (and therefore no regs). The regs are the vehicle by which the laws are carried out. Do you really want a bunch of congress critters sitting around writing the regs themselves? (Actually, these days the industries themselves pretty much write the regs, and that's sadly true regardless of which party's in power).
 

Caustic Burno

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boondocks":2z64r8os said:
sim.-ang.king":2z64r8os said:
We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.

Not sure I'm following. If there were no laws or regs on the books, what basis would people have to stand up against, for example, a company dumping hazardous waste? Do you think a company would just willingly say Sorry and stop? How could they, if their competitors are also polluting? You must have a much more favorable view of human nature than I do...

To CB: There were originally no environmental laws (and therefore no regs). The regs are the vehicle by which the laws are carried out. Do you really want a bunch of congress critters sitting around writing the regs themselves? (Actually, these days the industries themselves pretty much write the regs, and that's sadly true regardless of which party's in power).


Wouldn’t expect less from the blue.
Always looking for someone to take care of you.
 

Bright Raven

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boondocks":35hmrbj1 said:
sim.-ang.king":35hmrbj1 said:
We wouldn't need gov. regulations if we had a more free market, and people were smart enough, and willing enough to stand up to companies that were doing things, like dumping sewage, and the like.
But everyone just wants stuff cheap, and easy. Why do you thing imports from China are so large? The stuff from China is cheap and easy to get.

Not sure I'm following. If there were no laws or regs on the books, what basis would people have to stand up against, for example, a company dumping hazardous waste? Do you think a company would just willingly say Sorry and stop? How could they, if their competitors are also polluting? You must have a much more favorable view of human nature than I do...

To CB: There were originally no environmental laws (and therefore no regs). The regs are the vehicle by which the laws are carried out. Do you really want a bunch of congress critters sitting around writing the regs themselves? (Actually, these days the industries themselves pretty much write the regs, and that's sadly true regardless of which party's in power).

I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills.
 
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Raven quote: "I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills."

In the fishing industry, regulations are written by NMFS bureaucrats that promote their agenda. Which is their "need for more funding" to secure their jobs. If they do not max out their yearly budget, they may take a cut next. Also involved in making the regulations are Marine biologist, most of which have anti commercial fishing ideals. There are"public meetings" held to get "industry input" but that is only a formality. NEVER has a public meeting changed a regulation. Commercial fishing was for years basically self regulating. If a fishery is declining, the less productive boats can't turn a profit and will ,over time, be sold off or enter another fishery. The hard core best Captains keep struggling along, gain more market share and with less stress on the fishery, it turns profitable again. Once profitable again, more people enter the fishery and it starts all over. It's a vicious cycle that weeds out the least productive. With the exception of maybe a very select few species, no fishery can "catch all the fish" to extinction. It just is not possible. But that is not what the "textbooks" teach.
 

Bright Raven

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zirlottkim":2e8ynl8u said:
Raven quote: "I have been a member of a promulgation committee. That was in the 1980s. I was detailed from Casper, Wyoming to Washington, DC. We took formal comment from the public which included industries but the Office of Surface Mining wrote the final regulations pursuant to public comment and the authorizing statutes. When did industries start writing federal regulations? I just don't believe that would withstand legal challenge.

Regulations are not written by congressional critters. The committee I was on included Registered Professional Engineers, hydrologist, legal counsel, mining engineers, etc. I was selected as a Reclamation Specialist and because of my composition skills."

In the fishing industry, regulations are written by NMFS bureaucrats that promote their agenda. Which is their "need for more funding" to secure their jobs. If they do not max out their yearly budget, they may take a cut next. Also involved in making the regulations are Marine biologist, most of which have anti commercial fishing ideals. There are"public meetings" held to get "industry input" but that is only a formality. NEVER has a public meeting changed a regulation. Commercial fishing was for years basically self regulating. If a fishery is declining, the less productive boats can't turn a profit and will ,over time, be sold off or enter another fishery. The hard core best Captains keep struggling along, gain more market share and with less stress on the fishery, it turns profitable again. Once profitable again, more people enter the fishery and it starts all over. It's a vicious cycle that weeds out the least productive. With the exception of maybe a very select few species, no fishery can "catch all the fish" to extinction. It just is not possible. But that is not what the "textbooks" teach.

That is about what I said. Industry does not promulgate the rules that regulate them.

Regarding public comment - it rarely ever changes the draft proposed rule.
 

True Grit Farms

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You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.
We have created a couple of non profit organizations to represent the commercial fishing industry. It's worked out great for everyone besides the taxpayers, they are now footing all our legal bills. We have NMFS back peddling on the King Mackerel, Red snapper TAC. Our quotas increased by a third, hopefully change is finally coming to our industry.
 

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True Grit Farms":301hqxt9 said:
You can go to any of the NMFS public hearings and after the meetings adjourn for the day, the council members are at the bar drinking with a couple of young floozies from the Pew foundation. I've seen them eating supper together, lucky them, but normally it doesn't work out so good for the fishermen.

We took oral comment with a court reporter on duty. We also took written comment. All comments required a written published response in the Federal Register. We were not permitted to fraternize with anyone holding an interest in our final rules.
 
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