Question for the USA/Canadian purebred breeders

[KNERSIE]

After a series of bulls posted on this forum that are obvious culls for various reasons I can't help but wondering...

Who enforces the various breeds' minimum standards? Do you have breed inspectors classifying purebred animals before being taken up in the adult animal registry? Or is it simply the owner/breeders choice?

In SA it works as follows:
When a cow calves, the calf is registered in the calfbook of the breed. Should the breeder doubt parentage, or the calf is an obvious cull, you still give notice of the birth, but mark the calf as "not for registration". That way the cow's reproductive record stays up to date.

Before a calf can be taken up in the permanent registry he has to be liniar classified and passed by a breed inspector (between 12 and 36 months of age) to make sure he meets the breeds' minimum standard. If an animal is failed by the breed inspector, it is a cull, there is no way the animal can be registered, regardless of what the owner sees in the animal.

Obviously some faults take a heavier weight, like scrotal faults, leg and feet faults, jaw faults, etc, are culls, capacity, muscle and other traits are given marks according to a liniar classification system. Even the in-herd index of the animal is taken into account.

Don't get me wrong I don't think our system is flawless, but you won't see registered bulls of the major breeds with twisted testicles, a split scrotum, posty hindlegs or weak pasterns.

How do your system work?

 

[handydandy]

you answered you question: simply the owner/breeders choice

If you want to pay the registration fees, then you can register the animal. Of course as long as the dam and sire are registered.

 

[Frankie]

After a series of bulls posted on this forum that are obvious culls for various reasons I can't help but wondering...

Who enforces the various breeds' minimum standards? Do you have breed inspectors classifying purebred animals before being taken up in the adult animal registry? Or is it simply the owner/breeders choice?

In SA it works as follows:
When a cow calves, the calf is registered in the calfbook of the breed. Should the breeder doubt parentage, or the calf is an obvious cull, you still give notice of the birth, but mark the calf as "not for registration". That way the cow's reproductive record stays up to date.

Before a calf can be taken up in the permanent registry he has to be liniar classified and passed by a breed inspector (between 12 and 36 months of age) to make sure he meets the breeds' minimum standard. If an animal is failed by the breed inspector, it is a cull, there is no way the animal can be registered, regardless of what the owner sees in the animal.

Obviously some faults take a heavier weight, like scrotal faults, leg and feet faults, jaw faults, etc, are culls, capacity, muscle and other traits are given marks according to a liniar classification system. Even the in-herd index of the animal is taken into account.

Don't get me wrong I don't think our system is flawless, but you won't see registered bulls of the major breeds with twisted testicles, a split scrotum, posty hindlegs or weak pasterns.

How do your system work?

To register an Angus with the American Angus Association, the dam and sire have to be registered, we have to provide a birthdate and name and send a registration fee. That's it. I think Beefmasters have some sort of evaluation program :?: , but I don't know of any major breed in the US that has a program like the one you describe.

A major difference may be that we sell most of our bulls as yearlings. I think that's true of most breeds. By the time they're 36 months old, they've been working two years. It's kinda late then to be taking away their registration. And how many bulls are you saying get evaluated? Who provides the inspectors and pays for the evaluation?

 

[KNERSIE]

A major difference may be that we sell most of our bulls as yearlings. I think that's true of most breeds. By the time they're 36 months old, they've been working two years. It's kinda late then to be taking away their registration. And how many bulls are you saying get evaluated? Who provides the inspectors and pays for the evaluation?

Bulls typically get sold between 18 and 24 months of age, but then they are expected to cover 30+ cows on very extensive range and where they have to travel long distances for water and grass.

You cannot transfer a bulls registration to the new owner unless he has been through his inspection. Its not a question of taking away his registration, he never is fully registered unless he had been inspected.

All registered bulls get evaluated, there are still many "bush breeders" who sells unregistered bulls and obviously just about every flaw will slip through there, but my question was regarding registered bulls.

The breed association supply the inspectors or a list of approved inspectors, some of them are also private cattle consultants. The bill is for the breeder. There are standard rates for the evaluation per head, but some of the consultants charge a consulting fee and traveling expense. Like I said the system isn't flawless, but there is certainly much better quality control judging by some of the photos that has been posted here.

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

 

[MikeC]

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

What happens in this scenario is very simple.

Nobody buys his animals......................

 

[hillsdown]

Knersie,are all bulls required when registered to have DNA on file?

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie,are all bulls required when registered to have DNA on file?

No, not currently, but before being approved for an AI sire it has to be done. Spot checks are done randomly through all the herds, though, I had my turn last year.

When the inspectors sees reason for suspicion they can require it. In my opinion all bulls at least needs to have DNA on file.

 

[KNERSIE]

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

What happens in this scenario is very simple.

Nobody buys his animals......................

....., but there are people who buys from them, some being very proud of their purchase, they even take photos and post them on the internet :shock:

 

[hillsdown]

....., but there are people who buys from them, some being very proud of their purchase, they even take photos and post them on the internet :shock:

LMAO

True enough.With the CGA if you want to register any animals the sire must be registered and have DNA on file.I agree that maybe a system should be in place to help critic breeding stock, however who would pay for it?The producers are already taking a beating on their stock especially Canada we can't export breeding stock anymore so bull sale numbers are down quite a bit.I think a lot of producers and buyers rely on their Vets to help make that end decision also their breed reps really help too.

It is not like say the Canadian Holstein association where there are thousands of members to share costs.Each breed has their own association so costs are quite high already.At this time I just don't see it being feasible or accepted by breed members.

Although this is JMHO.

 

[MikeC]

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

What happens in this scenario is very simple.

Nobody buys his animals......................

....., but there are people who buys from them, some being very proud of their purchase, they even take photos and post them on the internet :shock:

When I said nobody, I had thought you to mean purebred breeders were buying them.

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

That said. If a purebred breeder is selling inferior animals, they won't sell. Problem solved.

 

[KNERSIE]

MikeC,

I believe there are certain faults that cannot be tolerated in breeding animals, whether the intended market other purebred breeders or commercial cattlemen or even hobbyists. Scrotal faults being one of them, faults that hamper mobility or longevity of the productive lifespan are others, yet breeders sell those kinds and people buy them.

I know the buyer also has a responsibilty to empower himself with knowledge so that he isn't taken for a ride, but I also believe that every breed should have minimum standards and animals not meeting that should not be allowed in the registry.

I also know it says alot about the breeder selling those animals, every purebred breeders own standards should be much higher than the breeds minimum standards, but my point is that I see registered bulls being sold that would never pass their inspection over here.

 

[Brandonm2]

MikeC,

I believe there are certain faults that cannot be tolerated in breeding animals, whether the intended market other purebred breeders or commercial cattlemen or even hobbyists. Scrotal faults being one of them, faults that hamper mobility or longevity of the productive lifespan are others, yet breeders sell those kinds and people buy them.

I know the buyer also has a responsibilty to empower himself with knowledge so that he isn't taken for a ride, but I also believe that every breed should have minimum standards and animals not meeting that should not be allowed in the registry.

I also know it says alot about the breeder selling those animals, every purebred breeders own standards should be much higher than the breeds minimum standards, but my point is that I see registered bulls being sold that would never pass their inspection over here.

In the United States, whether you are buying bulls, used cars, real estate, etc the philosophy of Caveat Emptor ("Let the Buyer Beware") is more or less the guiding principle. You don't have to sell him with a breeding guarantee unless you want to and most private treaty bulls are still sold without a breeding soundness exam. Poor structured bulls, questionable lineages, falsified data, ever changing breed standards, etc might explain why many commercial bull buyers are so reluctant to pay more for a herd bull than the price of two good commercial pairs.

 

[C HOLLAND]

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

What happens in this scenario is very simple.

Nobody buys his animals......................

....., but there are people who buys from them, some being very proud of their purchase, they even take photos and post them on the internet :shock:

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

I guess that means, if a breeder is selling to a rookie/hobby guy it's ok to sell his culls because the newbie is still learning.

I wonder what happened to basic ETHICS, or does that matter if the guy buying is a hobby/newbie just getting started and really in need of help.

I would rather buy from someone who wants to know what I need to improve my heard and will talk me out of buying that TRAIN WRECK.

Why not help the new guy out, volumn of good quality animals will only help the industry. We have enough of the low quality going through the sale barns as it is, and most of those are from the old timers in my area. I am planning to sell my Angus bull that I paid to much for and look for a better fit for my heard, he just didnt do what I think can be done with the right bull, and the next bull will probally be Charolais.

Knerse,,,,I think the way they approve registered breeding stock there is a great thing, but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

 

[VanC]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

 

[Frankie]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

The Associations don't look at each animal. How can you blame them when poor quality animals are registered?

 

[C HOLLAND]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

The Associations don't look at each animal. How can you blame them when poor quality animals are registered?

I don't think we are blaming the associations, I think that the associations could do more to improve the quality of registered breeding stock with a system that is like Kinersie described.

I think LESS with better QUALITY can only increase the price for breeders and take some of the culls that are sold at almost every sale out of the picture and help to improve the quality of cattle.

Frankie, you can't tell me that all the bulls sold at these high dollar sales are the best of the breed they repesent, just because you AI or have an ET program doesnt make every bull you produce a herd sire.

 

[VanC]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

The Associations don't look at each animal. How can you blame them when poor quality animals are registered?

That's my point. Maybe there should be some kind of quality control system in place like there is in South Africa.

 

[C HOLLAND]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

The Associations don't look at each animal. How can you blame them when poor quality animals are registered?

That's my point. Maybe there should be some kind of quality control system in place like there is in South Africa.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a WINNER BINGO :lol: :lol:

 

[Frankie]

but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

That's it in a nutshell. More registrations means more money for the breed associations, so they tend to look the other way when poor quality animals are registered.

The Associations don't look at each animal. How can you blame them when poor quality animals are registered?

I don't think we are blaming the associations, I think that the associations could do more to improve the quality of registered breeding stock with a system that is like Kinersie described.

Van was doing exactly that, blaming the associations, when they simply accept the member's paperwork. IMO, their job is to maintain registerations and pedigree information, not to tell their members what is a satisfactory bull.

We haven't been able to get any numbers out of Knersie, so do we know if such a system is even feasible here in the US? Do we know how many bulls are being sold there that haven't been approved by their associations? As of the end of May, almost 39,000 just Angus bulls were sold in this country. I don't know how many bulls of other breeds, but at least that many more. How much more are you willing to pay for a bull to ensure that every bull of a particular breed meets certain specifications. You know what you want in a bull. Do you honestly want to pay another $50-100 bucks to ensure that someone else doesn't wind up with something he doesn't want? And a responsible breeder would make it right when someone winds up with an unsatisfactory bull.

I think LESS with better QUALITY can only increase the price for breeders and take some of the culls that are sold at almost every sale out of the picture and help to improve the quality of cattle.

Someone is buying those "culls" for the amount he's willing to pay.

Frankie, you can't tell me that all the bulls sold at these high dollar sales are the best of the breed they repesent, just because you AI or have an ET program doesnt make every bull you produce a herd sire.

What makes a herd sire? I know one breeder who says about his sale "there's something there for everyone." Truthfully, I cringe sometimes at the EPDs and performance of some of his bulls, but he's right. Not everyone is willing/able to pay big bucks for a bull. But they need and are going to buy a bull...somewhere. Neither of us can say what the commercial cattleman is looking for in a bull. They know it when they see it; but they can't always afford it. So they buy the next "best" bull in their eyes.

 

[MikeC]

Most breed registrations are barely making it now. The people who work there make fairly modest salaries too.

You people are joking aren't you?

This is the silliest thing I've heard in a long time.

The association is owned and operated by the breeders. They consist of mostly grownup people who can police themselves.

Maybe you'd rather have a government inspector come out and tell you what can be registered and what can't.