Question for the USA/Canadian purebred breeders

[dun]

(BTW - that word is pronounced and spelled SALES - like what propels "SAILboats" You don't go to a Cattle "SELL". Sorry - but that mispronuncition bugs the heck out of me!)


DOC HARRIS

I thought I was the only one that it bothered

 

[novatech]

(BTW - that word is pronounced and spelled SALES - like what propels "SAILboats" You don't go to a Cattle "SELL". Sorry - but that mispronuncition bugs the heck out of me!)


DOC HARRIS

I thought I was the only one that it bothered

Some people sell their cattle at the cattle sale and some people sale their cattle at the cattle sale.

 

[novatech]

I have been around cattle most of my life. This weekend was the first time I had ever been to a show and helped. I did this in an effort to educate myself as to what one should look for within the breed that I raise, the finer details. I asked breeders what some of the standards were that judges looked for. The only answer I received was that it was up to the judge. I saw one bull that was ideal, in my openion, but had the smallest set of testicals of any bull I had ever seen. Turns out he had won at many previous shows. Same with a heifer, great animal but had 4 extra teats, also had won at previous shows.
Quite frankly I have learned more off these boards than any of the people at the show.
Haveing said this I do not think that Knersie is saying that these inspectors are looking for traits that may or maynot be great bulls but rather more specific traits that an association would want bred out of the breed. Such as an angus with horns, twisted nuts, etc.

 

[Brandonm2]

HOLLAND and Brandonm2 also-

I agree whole-heartedly with what both of you are saying. This quote "Poor structured bulls, questionable lineages, falsified data, ever changing breed standards, etc might explain why many commercial bull buyers are so reluctant to pay more for a herd bull than the price of two good commercial pairs." is very true - and the operable word in this entire functioning operation of "Sales". (BTW - that word is pronounced and spelled SALES - like what propels "SAILboats" You don't go to a Cattle "SELL". Sorry - but that mispronuncition bugs the heck out of me!)

Anyway - the problem which exists with a lot of businesses, and the Beef Cattle Business is not different than a lot of others, is 'LACK OF HONESTY!' Lack of INTEGRITY on the part of BOTH buyer and seller is another monkeywrench that is thrown into the mix! It is a shame that you can't LEGISLATE Truth and Integrity and Honesty. You have to just let the grinding gears and sawteeth of the business world chew the crooks up and spit them out.

This whole scenario is another justified reason for LEARNING AND EDUCATION. Don't jump into something without knowing what you are doing!

What goes around - Comes around!

DOC HARRIS

Doc. Sale is a noun. Sell is a verb. Sold is the past tense of the verb. Sales is the plural form of the noun. Sells is the plural form of the verb.

I sell (verb) my bulls at the cattle sale (noun).
He sells (verb) his bulls at many cattle sales (noun).
My bull is for sale (noun).
I will sell (verb) my bull to you.
I sold (verb) my bull last week at the sale barn's special replacements sale (noun).
A good salesman sells (verb) his whole program to the customer, not just the bull he currently has for sale (noun).
Sales (noun) were up last quarter.

Are we in agreement???

 

[dun]

Doc. Sale is a noun. Sell is a verb. Sold is the past tense of the verb. Sales is the plural form of the noun. Sells is the plural form of the verb.

I sell (verb) my bulls at the cattle sale (noun).
He sells (verb) his bulls at many cattle sales (noun).
My bull is for sale (noun).
I will sell (verb) my bull to you.
I sold (verb) my bull last week at the sale barn's special replacements sale (noun).
A good salesman sells (verb) his whole program to the customer, not just the bull he currently has for sale (noun).
Sales (noun) were up last quarter.

Are we in agreement???

I don;t know if Doc agrees, but I do FWIW. I just don;t know the verbs, nouns, pronouns, and I think there are more but I don;t know them either.

 

[KNERSIE]

HOLLAND and Brandonm2 also-

I agree whole-heartedly with what both of you are saying. This quote "Poor structured bulls, questionable lineages, falsified data, ever changing breed standards, etc might explain why many commercial bull buyers are so reluctant to pay more for a herd bull than the price of two good commercial pairs." is very true - and the operable word in this entire functioning operation of "Sales". (BTW - that word is pronounced and spelled SALES - like what propels "SAILboats" You don't go to a Cattle "SELL". Sorry - but that mispronuncition bugs the heck out of me!)

Anyway - the problem which exists with a lot of businesses, and the Beef Cattle Business is not different than a lot of others, is 'LACK OF HONESTY!' Lack of INTEGRITY on the part of BOTH buyer and seller is another monkeywrench that is thrown into the mix! It is a shame that you can't LEGISLATE Truth and Integrity and Honesty. You have to just let the grinding gears and sawteeth of the business world chew the crooks up and spit them out.

This whole scenario is another justified reason for LEARNING AND EDUCATION. Don't jump into something without knowing what you are doing!

What goes around - Comes around!

DOC HARRIS

Doc. Sale is a noun. Sell is a verb. Sold is the past tense of the verb. Sales is the plural form of the noun. Sells is the plural form of the verb.

I sell (verb) my bulls at the cattle sale (noun).
He sells (verb) his bulls at many cattle sales (noun).
My bull is for sale (noun).
I will sell (verb) my bull to you.
I sold (verb) my bull last week at the sale barn's special replacements sale (noun).
A good salesman sells (verb) his whole program to the customer, not just the bull he currently has for sale (noun).
Sales (noun) were up last quarter.

Are we in agreement???

You're not a teacher, are you?

I agree with you, thats the way I was taught, but since English isn't my first language my opinion on this probably don't weigh much.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Brandonm2-


Doc. Sale is a noun. Sell is a verb. Sold is the past tense of the verb. Sales is the plural form of the noun. Sells is the plural form of the verb.

I sell (verb) my bulls at the cattle sale (noun).
He sells (verb) his bulls at many cattle sales (noun).
My bull is for sale (noun).
I will sell (verb) my bull to you.
I sold (verb) my bull last week at the sale barn's special replacements sale (noun).
A good salesman sells (verb) his whole program to the customer, not just the bull he currently has for sale (noun).
Sales (noun) were up last quarter.

Are we in agreement???

Absolutely!! Your "grammatical" use, explanation and example of the words "sale" and "sell" are correct, definitive, and optimistic!

It is the incorrect "pronunciation" of the word "SALE", (correctly 'sounding' as in the words hale, bale, dale, gale, male, vale, Yale, take, make, bake, cake, fake, lake, sake, etc. The "e" at the end of the word causing the "a" to be pronounced as a LONG "a".) The "INCORRECT" pronunciation of the word "SALE" (making it sound as in the words bell, cell, dell, fell, he!!, jell, pell, mell, nell, SELL, tell, well, and yell making the "a" to be pronounced as if it were a short "e" is what RAKES my fingerNAILS on the blackboard! My High School English teacher would spin in her GRAVE if she were here toDAY!

DOC HARRIS

 

[ALACOWMAN]

from bad bull's to bad grammar. you never know where these post will venture.let's solve one problem at a time ;-)

 

[VanC]

My High School English teacher would spin in her GRAVE if she were here toDAY!
DOC HARRIS

OK. Now I'm really confused. If she were here, how could she be in her grave, let alone spinning in it?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

My High School English teacher would spin in her GRAVE if she were here toDAY!
DOC HARRIS

OK. Now I'm really confused. If she were here, how could she be in her grave, let alone spinning in it?

VanC-
:lol2: . .gasp. . :lol: :lol: THAT is really funny!! Give me a moment to come up with an appropriate response! . . . . . . . . OK - here it is! . .She made such an impression on my skull full of mush when I was in High School, because she was instrumental in encouraging me to pursue Ruthie (my dear wife of 63 years) - - AND - - she was such a DEMANDING teacher, that she is ALWAYS here in my thoughts! :roll: :roll: IF she were here today - alive - the ways that the English (American) language has been adulterated and corrupted would CAUSE her to expire and spin before, during, and after burial - thereby creating the EFFECT that she was still here - AND - spinning in her grave consecutively. Good trick! But she could probably do it!

DOC HARRIS

 

[VanC]

My High School English teacher would spin in her GRAVE if she were here toDAY!
DOC HARRIS

OK. Now I'm really confused. If she were here, how could she be in her grave, let alone spinning in it?

VanC-
:lol2: . .gasp. . :lol: :lol: THAT is really funny!! Give me a moment to come up with an appropriate response! . . . . . . . . OK - here it is! . .She made such an impression on my skull full of mush when I was in High School, because she was instrumental in encouraging me to pursue Ruthie (my dear wife of 63 years) - - AND - - she was such a DEMANDING teacher, that she is ALWAYS here in my thoughts! :roll: :roll: IF she were here today - alive - the ways that the English (American) language has been adulterated and corrupted would CAUSE her to expire and spin before, during, and after burial - thereby creating the EFFECT that she was still here - AND - spinning in her grave consecutively. Good trick! But she could probably do it!

DOC HARRIS

I understand, DOC. Things being what they are today, I would imagine there are a multitude of departed English teachers spinning like tops.

 

[KMacGinley]

I have been around cattle most of my life. This weekend was the first time I had ever been to a show and helped. I did this in an effort to educate myself as to what one should look for within the breed that I raise, the finer details. I asked breeders what some of the standards were that judges looked for. The only answer I received was that it was up to the judge. I saw one bull that was ideal, in my openion, but had the smallest set of testicals of any bull I had ever seen. Turns out he had won at many previous shows. Same with a heifer, great animal but had 4 extra teats, also had won at previous shows.
Quite frankly I have learned more off these boards than any of the people at the show.
Haveing said this I do not think that Knersie is saying that these inspectors are looking for traits that may or maynot be great bulls but rather more specific traits that an association would want bred out of the breed. Such as an angus with horns, twisted nuts, etc.

Those extra Teats are called supernumary teats and most heifers have them.

Doc: Did I use the word Teats right, seems there is a different pronunciation of that word as well.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I have been around cattle most of my life. This weekend was the first time I had ever been to a show and helped. I did this in an effort to educate myself as to what one should look for within the breed that I raise, the finer details. I asked breeders what some of the standards were that judges looked for. The only answer I received was that it was up to the judge. I saw one bull that was ideal, in my openion, but had the smallest set of testicals of any bull I had ever seen. Turns out he had won at many previous shows. Same with a heifer, great animal but had 4 extra teats, also had won at previous shows.
Quite frankly I have learned more off these boards than any of the people at the show.
Haveing said this I do not think that Knersie is saying that these inspectors are looking for traits that may or maynot be great bulls but rather more specific traits that an association would want bred out of the breed. Such as an angus with horns, twisted nuts, etc.

Those extra Teats are called supernumary teats and most heifers have them.

Doc: Did I use the word Teats right, seems there is a different pronunciation of that word as well.

that's the politicaly correct version. don't know why some folks get so bent out of shape over those little blind extra teats. now if a bull had three testicals thats a nuther storey

 

[MikeC]

I read somewhere that a bull's scrotum defiencies are highly correlated to a heifer's lack of teat and udder conformation.

Don't know when or where I read it, but it stuck in my peabrain.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I read somewhere that a bull's scrotum defiencies are highly correlated to a heifer's lack of teat and udder conformation.

Don't know when or where I read it, but it stuck in my peabrain.

i believe that too.. but ive got some cow's with those extra little teats at the back of her udder that ive never had problems with them. and the rest of there milk carton is sound as a dollar

 

[gberry]

Knersie wrote: Who enforces the various breeds' minimum standards? Do you have breed inspectors classifying purebred animals before being taken up in the adult animal registry? Or is it simply the owner/breeders choice?

I'm gonna start all over again with this thread:

We have a very unique way of inspecting our herd;

The breed inspectors we employ in the USA are called "BUYERS". This person is expected to have schooled himself in the art of judging cattle and might be much more qualified to select an animal that will meet his criteria because he is spending his own "Hard Owned Money" on an animal to produce his offspring, thus removing the term "Subjective" from the equation.

There is no need for a program "To Save Us From Ourselves" in the event that the "BUYER" does not qualify himself for this task because the fault will be his, and his alone.

To my knowledge, we have never "FORCED" a buyer to purchase any subpar animal for his breeding needs as this would be against our criminal laws.

Our breed associations' certify our breeding stock as to lineage and each animal must meet the specifications as outlined by each respective association, which are too numerous to list.

I think this is the part Knersie is questioning. If the breed association has specs then why aren't they enforced. No one says you can't sell a bull that doesn't meet the specs, but they shouldn't be registered. And as to the logistics of inspecting the bulls, I have yet to be at an Angus sale in the southeast that was not attended by the Regional representative of the AAA. Could they not be inspected at that time?

 

[Frankie]

Knersie wrote: Who enforces the various breeds' minimum standards? Do you have breed inspectors classifying purebred animals before being taken up in the adult animal registry? Or is it simply the owner/breeders choice?

I'm gonna start all over again with this thread:

We have a very unique way of inspecting our herd;

The breed inspectors we employ in the USA are called "BUYERS". This person is expected to have schooled himself in the art of judging cattle and might be much more qualified to select an animal that will meet his criteria because he is spending his own "Hard Owned Money" on an animal to produce his offspring, thus removing the term "Subjective" from the equation.

There is no need for a program "To Save Us From Ourselves" in the event that the "BUYER" does not qualify himself for this task because the fault will be his, and his alone.

To my knowledge, we have never "FORCED" a buyer to purchase any subpar animal for his breeding needs as this would be against our criminal laws.

Our breed associations' certify our breeding stock as to lineage and each animal must meet the specifications as outlined by each respective association, which are too numerous to list.

I think this is the part Knersie is questioning. If the breed association has specs then why aren't they enforced. No one says you can't sell a bull that doesn't meet the specs, but they shouldn't be registered. And as to the logistics of inspecting the bulls, I have yet to be at an Angus sale in the southeast that was not attended by the Regional representative of the AAA. Could they not be inspected at that time?

They are "inspected" at that time. But they're only inspected for things that would make them non-registerable, white in the wrong place, horns, scurs.... If a bull has "bad" feet or legs, it's on the seller not to sell the bull or the buyer not to buy the bull.

 

[MikeC]

I think this is the part Knersie is questioning. If the breed association has specs then why aren't they enforced. No one says you can't sell a bull that doesn't meet the specs, but they shouldn't be registered. And as to the logistics of inspecting the bulls, I have yet to be at an Angus sale in the southeast that was not attended by the Regional representative of the AAA. Could they not be inspected at that time?

As far as I know, all specs ARE enforced, just not by a breed rep. By the Seller and the Buyer.

I would say most bulls are sold private treaty.

Registration does not mean the conformation of a bull is perfect, only that the info on the certificate is correct.

When you start picking perfect animals, there just aren't any. How far do you go? It's up to the Assoc itself.

 

[gberry]

What's the penalty for registering an animal that doesn't meet the breed characteristics? I agree that ensuring confirmation is not the job of the association unless the association has a set of guidelines that include the confirmation of the animal. In that case an animal that does not meet that confirmation should not be able to be registered.

 

[Alan]

As far as I know, all specs ARE enforced, just not by a breed rep. By the Seller and the Buyer.

You can see by some of the cattle pictured on this site that the specs are not being enforced by the seller or the buyer.

When you start picking perfect animals, there just aren't any. How far do you go? It's up to the Assoc itself.

No animal is going to be perfect. I agree it is up to the association to decided, therefore they should. Something as simple as three views in picture form sent in could do this. If folks don't want to do this they don't have to run registered stock. IMO there is way too much garbage out there being passed off as seed stock, and yes mostly by the hobby guys, which I'm one of.

Alan