Question for the USA/Canadian purebred breeders

[MikeC]

My response to the original post was intended to make people THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX for a change.

Your response to the original post seemed to question basic ethics:

"I wonder what happened to basic ETHICS"

HMMMMMMM?

 

[Alan]

I'm late jumping in on this one, but have to agree that our system is not good enough. I don't know what the answer is, I don't like the idea of a government person comming out to tell you what is good enough and what is not. I also don't think a program like South Africa has can be set up in a financially affordable system.

On the other hand, I bought a new bull a couple of months back, and while looking, I sure saw a lot of garbage out there. Even my novice eye could see most of the bulls I looked at should have been steers. I have been to a couple of local fairs this summer, again a lot of garbage that should not be registered.

I have seen it in horses and dogs, someone has a registered animal and that is enough for them to breed the POS and churn out more cr@p. I would like to see some regulation to keep the "seed stock" producers in check.

JMO,
Alan

 

[MikeC]

I'm late jumping in on this one, but have to agree that our system is not good enough. I don't know what the answer is, I don't like the idea of a government person comming out to tell you what is good enough and what is not. I also don't think a program like South Africa has can be set up in a financially affordable system.

On the other hand, I bought a new bull a couple of months back, and while looking, I sure saw a lot of garbage out there. Even my novice eye could see most of the bulls I looked at should have been steers. I have been to a couple of local fairs this summer, again a lot of garbage that should not be registered.

I have seen it in horses and dogs, someone has a registered animal and that is enough for them to breed the POS and churn out more cr@p. I would like to see some regulation to keep the "seed stock" producers in check.

JMO,
Alan

"Registration" has nothing to do with the quality of an animal.

The registering authority only serves to collect, assemble and hold and/or publish the data that the breeders submit. There are serious consequences to pay if the breeder submits false info.

It is up to the buyers keep the breeder's in check.

A treasure to one cattleman might be trash to another.

To be critical of a program, yet offer no constructive remedy to a perceived shortcoming is a benignly deficient argument.

 

[Herefords.US]

I would like to see some regulation to keep the "seed stock" producers in check.

JMO,
Alan

Alan, if your proposed "regulation" had been in place in the 40s-50s, there is a chance that a lot of the registered cattle that provided the genetics to get America's cowherd back to practical productivity and increased size would have never been allowed to have been registered.

How would have the Prospectors fared under "regulation" - a line started out of known dwarfism carriers to prove that you could breed the genetic defect out through selection and trial. Without the Prospector line, the Felton cattle wouldn't exist today - or would likely be very different.

Be careful what you wish for!

George

 

[ALACOWMAN]

"Obvious culls", is kinda subjective isn't it? How does anyone from foriegn contry know what our bulls and meatmakers should look like. There are a lot of different environments on this ball sailing around the sun. KNOW what works best for you and your buyers, commercial and seedstock!

Sizmic

This is not about the USA vs the rest of the world.

BUT, a cull is a cull in SA, the UK, Australia, Canada, Brazil, the rest of the world including the USA.

Sound feet and legs, sound scrotum etc look the same all over the world, I am talking about functional traits, not types.

I agree that you should match your animals to your environment, but I still don't think unsound animals should be sold as breeding stock, regardless of where in the world you are.

thats a fact. i guess living in the land of the free. we have privilege to by crap.

 

[Frankie]

"Obvious culls", is kinda subjective isn't it? How does anyone from foriegn contry know what our bulls and meatmakers should look like. There are a lot of different environments on this ball sailing around the sun. KNOW what works best for you and your buyers, commercial and seedstock!

Sizmic

This is not about the USA vs the rest of the world.

BUT, a cull is a cull in SA, the UK, Australia, Canada, Brazil, the rest of the world including the USA.

Sound feet and legs, sound scrotum etc look the same all over the world, I am talking about functional traits, not types.

I agree that you should match your animals to your environment, but I still don't think unsound animals should be sold as breeding stock, regardless of where in the world you are.

thats a fact. i guess living in the land of the free. we have privilege to by crap.

Or not.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

there are good breeder's out there that will help you and back their animals. their product and reputation means more than the dollar.

 

[C HOLLAND]

When I said nobody, I had thought you to mean purebred breeders were buying them.

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

Mike, let me see if I can explain my post about lack of ethics by using ONE line from one of your post.

The reasoning you used about NEWBIES will buy anything they get a good deal on is not the answer to the problem in any way. This only makes for more sub par animals in the breeding stock available.
I don't know that you have ever kept any bull you produced that you felt was not a good quality herd sire, but to make a statement about the NEWBIE not being around long is SILLY and that approach is UN-ETHICAL

I will say one thing, at least you and Frankie have joined forces in this post and that in itself is a major accomplishment. :lol: :lol:

have a great day Mike ,,,,,,oh yeah reserve me one of your bulls at the next sale..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

I won't be around long anyway

 

[C HOLLAND]

there are good breeder's out there that will help you and back their animals. their product and reputation means more than the dollar.

AMEN and they will get my business in the future, if this NEWBIE has one. :lol: :lol:

 

[KNERSIE]

there are good breeder's out there that will help you and back their animals. their product and reputation means more than the dollar.

I don't doubt that for a moment.

The unscrupulous ones are those that instigated my question. Although glaring faults will be eliminated through our system it still doesn't guarantee quality, merely that the animal is sound enough to be acceptable as breeding stock. The real quality control will still be down to the breeder.

 

[MikeC]

When I said nobody, I had thought you to mean purebred breeders were buying them.

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

Mike, let me see if I can explain my post about lack of ethics by using ONE line from one of your post.

The reasoning you used about NEWBIES will buy anything they get a good deal on is not the answer to the problem in any way. This only makes for more sub par animals in the breeding stock available.
I don't know that you have ever kept any bull you produced that you felt was not a good quality herd sire, but to make a statement about the NEWBIE not being around long is SILLY and that approach is UN-ETHICAL

I will say one thing, at least you and Frankie have joined forces in this post and that in itself is a major accomplishment. :lol: :lol:

have a great day Mike ,,,,,,oh yeah reserve me one of your bulls at the next sale..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

I won't be around long anyway

If you want to put yourself in the category of a newbie who will buy that "Deal" and not hang around,,,,,, go ahead.

Just remember....... I didn't say it. YOU DID! :lol:

You're acting like a 10 year old because I questioned your statement that was directed towards purebred ethics?

By the way. I don't reserve any bulls for anyone who doesn't take a proactive position to see the bulls as they mature and the conditions they were raised under.

I let the others walk up to the sale 15 minutes before and make their decision on price alone. The CHEAPEST price :lol:

Get my drift?

 

[Northern Rancher]

I think the buyers will sort the breeders intheir own time. As for buying poor animals-the school of hard knocks will educate on that practice pretty darn quick.

 

[Brandonm2]

I am with Mike on this. Inspections would be just another layer of expensive hassle. I prefer a more open more free wheeling market.

 

[C HOLLAND]

When I said nobody, I had thought you to mean purebred breeders were buying them.

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

Mike, let me see if I can explain my post about lack of ethics by using ONE line from one of your post.

The reasoning you used about NEWBIES will buy anything they get a good deal on is not the answer to the problem in any way. This only makes for more sub par animals in the breeding stock available.
I don't know that you have ever kept any bull you produced that you felt was not a good quality herd sire, but to make a statement about the NEWBIE not being around long is SILLY and that approach is UN-ETHICAL

I will say one thing, at least you and Frankie have joined forces in this post and that in itself is a major accomplishment. :lol: :lol:

have a great day Mike ,,,,,,oh yeah reserve me one of your bulls at the next sale..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

I won't be around long anyway

If you want to put yourself in the category of a newbie who will buy that "Deal" and not hang around,,,,,, go ahead.

Just remember....... I didn't say it. YOU DID! :lol:

You're acting like a 10 year old because I questioned your statement that was directed towards purebred ethics?

By the way. I don't reserve any bulls for anyone who doesn't take a proactive position to see the bulls as they mature and the conditions they were raised under.

I let the others walk up to the sale 15 minutes before and make their decision on price alone. The CHEAPEST price :lol:

Get my drift?

Mike, I never questioned the ethics of any breeder (including you) but I did question the ethics of the statement you made, I don't really believe you operate that way.

And this is the last of this song for me.

 

[ROB]

don't intend on hijacking the thread but i find it interesting how opinions can differ on providing quality to the purchaser.


one breed in the U.S. has a system of requirements set up already. it is a system that has no fees attached to it - but allows premiums to be paid to the seller if certain criteria is met. although this system is not used for registration purposes, it is used to "help" the uneducated in making informed purchasing decisions. the main difference i see is that it also requires terminal testing instead of just live scoring in order to have a chance to qualify.

if registry standards were modified to incorporate scoring as knersie eluded to - couldn't that in turn be used to gain premiums on sales? these standards wouldn't have to be mandated by the govt. - simply a volunteer system, if you wanted your animal scored - contact the association to make arrangements. costs incurred for scoring would be offset by the premiums received for superior animals.

ROB

 

[KNERSIE]

don't intend on hijacking the thread but i find it interesting how opinions can differ on providing quality to the purchaser.


one breed in the U.S. has a system of requirements set up already. it is a system that has no fees attached to it - but allows premiums to be paid to the seller if certain criteria is met. although this system is not used for registration purposes, it is used to "help" the uneducated in making informed purchasing decisions. the main difference i see is that it also requires terminal testing instead of just live scoring in order to have a chance to qualify.

if registry standards were modified to incorporate scoring as knersie eluded to - couldn't that in turn be used to gain premiums on sales? these standards wouldn't have to be mandated by the govt. - simply a volunteer system, if you wanted your animal scored - contact the association to make arrangements. costs incurred for scoring would be offset by the premiums received for superior animals.

ROB

I'm not sure why government is continually brought into this, our system is administrated by the Breed associations, government is not involved at all.

The other advantage by a liniar classification system is that your animals are scored by people who score many animals of the same breed and if you understand how the system works it gives you a very clear idea where you stand in relation to other breeders.

Muscling for instance is scored out of 9, as are most traits. For female herefords the ideal score would be a 7, certainly not a 5 and certainly not a 9. For bulls the ideal would be a 7 or 8.
If your animals score on average a 6 you know you are behind the ideal as far as muscling goes. If your heifers score a 8 you've pushed it a touch too far, this doesn't mean the animal is a cull though, although if you go below a 5 you are below average for the breed and below average animals should not be allowed to replicate in the breed.

The set of the hindlegs is also scored out 9 with 5 being the perfect score. Below 5 means its too straight and above 5 too sickle. A 4 or a 6 won't be a cull, but a 2 or a 8 would be.

Improper phenotype like extreme swaybacks aren't tolerated and scrotums and testicles are very strictly evaluated and measured. Scrotal faults is a cull.

The emphasis is on functionality and types aren't enforced, if you feel you want to breed frame 7 animals its up to you, equally so for frame 4's. If you go to frame 2 or frame 9 they will advise you that you are going too extreme, but its still up to you. The scoring system is however in accordance to the breed's policy. For instance in SA we worked hard on fixing eyes, so the eyes are also incorporated in the scoring system.

If an animal has a weaning weight index of 70 there better be a reason why the animal has performed so poorly compared to its peers. In general I think it has more advantages than disadvantages and its for the better of the breed.

This doesn't prevent cattlemen from buying unregistered crappy bulls from "bush breeders", but at least if the bull is registered he will be free from serious faults.

I hope this is more clear now

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't know knersie. Are you basing muscling on actual REA ultrasound measurements or just somebody eyeballing it? I like visual evaluation; but I would rather not have my stuff scored by some goof who couldn't get a real job. Without seeing the details I probably would be strongly opposed to the implementation of that system and would never participate in that system if it were voluntary and would be inclined to look for an alternative registry if it were to become mandatory.

 

[KMacGinley]

As a breeder, you cannot be unscrupulous and expect to stay in business.

As a buyer, you cannot continue to be an idiot and stay in business.

The average purebred breeder lasts 7 years.

The average backyard newbie cattleman lasts???? Probably about the same.


I don't need the AAA to tell me if something is no good, do you?

If you answered yes, you may have some learning to do. That is if you want to last more than 7 years.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Knersie,

While I understand what you're saying as far as a ratings system goes, I don't see something like that working for North America. If it did, it would have to be based on purely quantitative traits, with no room for subjectivity. For example, I've seen show judges, theoretically people who should know animals, grade the same animal's musculature differently.

Also, within each breed, we have "show" animals and the people who register them and we have genuine working animals and the ranchers who register them. I'm thinking especially of the Shorthorn animals. Given the junk I see at many shows, I'd really hate for one of my working Shorthorns to be graded or judged by one of these showtime guys. The American Shorthorn Association is infested with show guys and the junk they try to pawn off as beef animals. I know there are other breeds having the same issues.

Now a question for you, and I don't think I saw it in your post. What happens in your country if you disagree with an inspector's evaluation of your animal? Do you have some way to appeal? I can't see this being an issue with an obvious deformity like twisted testicles, but what about something a little more subjective like posty legs or musculature?

Rod

 

[DOC HARRIS]

If there is no quality control, what prevents breeders to go haywire completely and breed animals that are uncharacteristic of the breed, or animals that is substandard for breeding purposes?

What happens in this scenario is very simple.

Nobody buys his animals......................

....., but there are people who buys from them, some being very proud of their purchase, they even take photos and post them on the internet :shock:

Yes there are newbies who will buy anything that they think they are getting a deal on. They don't usually stick around long enough to matter.

I guess that means, if a breeder is selling to a rookie/hobby guy it's ok to sell his culls because the newbie is still learning.

I wonder what happened to basic ETHICS, or does that matter if the guy buying is a hobby/newbie just getting started and really in need of help.

I would rather buy from someone who wants to know what I need to improve my heard and will talk me out of buying that TRAIN WRECK.

Why not help the new guy out, volumn of good quality animals will only help the industry. We have enough of the low quality going through the sale barns as it is, and most of those are from the old timers in my area. I am planning to sell my Angus bull that I paid to much for and look for a better fit for my heard, he just didnt do what I think can be done with the right bull, and the next bull will probally be Charolais.

Knerse,,,,I think the way they approve registered breeding stock there is a great thing, but here in the US, it would only reduce the amount of money the associations make and that would shake up the big boys in the front office.


JMO as a newbie/hobby/learning

C HOLLAND and Brandonm2 also-

I agree whole-heartedly with what both of you are saying. This quote "Poor structured bulls, questionable lineages, falsified data, ever changing breed standards, etc might explain why many commercial bull buyers are so reluctant to pay more for a herd bull than the price of two good commercial pairs." is very true - and the operable word in this entire functioning operation of "Sales". (BTW - that word is pronounced and spelled SALES - like what propels "SAILboats" You don't go to a Cattle "SELL". Sorry - but that mispronuncition bugs the heck out of me!)

Anyway - the problem which exists with a lot of businesses, and the Beef Cattle Business is not different than a lot of others, is 'LACK OF HONESTY!' Lack of INTEGRITY on the part of BOTH buyer and seller is another monkeywrench that is thrown into the mix! It is a shame that you can't LEGISLATE Truth and Integrity and Honesty. You have to just let the grinding gears and sawteeth of the business world chew the crooks up and spit them out.

This whole scenario is another justified reason for LEARNING AND EDUCATION. Don't jump into something without knowing what you are doing!

What goes around - Comes around!

DOC HARRIS