Question for Mechanics

[GoWyo]

My old 1997 Ford 7.3 Powerstroke is in the shop because it had an exhaust leak. Recommendation was to replace the exhaust manifolds and replace the turbo up pipes. Here is the write up on what happened:

On the driver side removed the removed remaining bolts and removed manifold. Found a broken bolt in the cylinder head all the way on the rear. On the passenger side removed all but 2 manifold bolts and tried to loosen ebp tube. Ebp tube is seized. Recommend new ebp tube. Tried welding nuts to the broken fastner multiple times and different types of extractors and drill bits with no luck. Tried to drill it out for helacoil and the head stress cracked.

Engine / Top End / When attempting to extract manifold bolt cylinder head started leaking coolant. Need new cylinder head for complete repair.

Basically there was a broken bolt on the rear of the driver side manifold and when they tried to extract the bolt they cracked the head. Should the shop eat replacement of the cylinder head or is that just one of those things that happens - bad luck for me - and I now have a 2x bill for this repair versus the original manifold and up pipe replacement?

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

In my shop I would call the customer the moment I found the broken bolt and discuss its removal and possible bad outcomes and how they want to proceed. On a 25 year old truck that surely has rusted exhaust manifolds that have been heat cycled 100000000 times anything is possible. If things went that sideways I would probably charge for the parts and eat some or all of the labor.

Having said that I've removed probably 100 broken exhaust manifold bolts in both Iron and aluminum heads and never cracked a single one. But I have had a couple so stubborn that the head had to be removed and setup in the mill to drill the bolt out.

This spring I had a tractor cab door shatter on a customers tractor. Because previously the frame had been bent and broke. Someone welded it up crooked so the glass was under extreme pressure. Since it happened to break while in my shop I ate the cost of a window and the labor to fix the frame and glue in the new glass. Just part of the cost of doing business.

 

[MurraysMutts]

I would be expecting the shop to eat a good chunk of the labor.
They should've stopped before it got to the point of breaking things and discuss further with the customer.

That's how it would've went down at my place. It stinks for everyone involved. But when ya work on old Iron its almost always a risk. And experienced tech should've known when to say when.

 

[Son of Butch]

You're entitled to have your vehicle returned to you in the same condition that you brought it in, but you are not entitled to any improvement for free.
They are entitled to the labor to diagnose the problem, but they are not entitled to the labor used to break your truck.

Now the tricky part and the heart of your question.
IF they broke the part due to their negligence in trying to disassemble, then you are owed a replacement part of equal value to the one they broke and the extra cost of the labor to install it to bring it back to the same condition it was in.

However I don't see any negligence in using the techniques they used.
Bottom line: you are owed a discount on the labor they incurred breaking it.
If you're lucky and they're agreeable and feeling guilty, maybe you can get up to a 20% discount on the replacement part and the labor to install it. But because of the age and condition of the truck, I think they would be justified in saying no to those discounts. I wouldn't push it too hard. But I would ask, worse they can say is no.

Hey Nesikep any thoughts or comments?

 

[Brute 23]

Did you get a call when they found the broken bolt where they explained the risk and asked if you wanted to proceed?

 

[greybeard]

old school was that if it broke on disassembly, it's on the customer. If they break it on re-assembly, it's on the shop.

But things have changed nowadays and it does sound like the shop may have made an honest attempt to make a repair that was beyond of their capability and in hindsight, should have removed the cyl head and sent it to a facility that does nothing but cyl head/block hot work after the local shop's 1st attempts didn't work.

 

[GoWyo]

They did call and said they had a stuck bolt and were going to work on getting it out. Didn't say they might crack the head, but I'm sure they didn't plan to crack it either.

This project started out as a $3200 job, which I was kind of choking on and with the cracked head they say another $3800 and with sales tax and some other incidentals it is going to be $8000. I should have most of a new engine for that. The parts are marked up some and the labor is pricey too, but I don't enjoy being a mechanic much beyond regular maintenance stuff and all labor is expensive.

This truck has eaten a lot of money in the last 18 months - new transmission at 225K miles, fuel bowl delete at 232K because whole fuel system was leaking and falling apart, fuel and injection pressure sensors and regulators turbo pedestal, up pipes, at 235K, and now this at 239K miles. I use it hard pulling a dually GN flatbed hauling hay and hauling cows home this time of year. Usually short trips 100 miles or less. I have owned it since 1999 and put over 200K on it myself. I have gone years and not had to spend much money running this truck, but it seems to be falling apart all at once.

 

[callmefence]

They did call and said they had a stuck bolt and were going to work on getting it out. Didn't say they might crack the head, but I'm sure they didn't plan to crack it either.

This project started out as a $3200 job, which I was kind of choking on and with the cracked head they say another $3800 and with sales tax and some other incidentals it is going to be $8000. I should have most of a new engine for that. The parts are marked up some and the labor is pricey too, but I don't enjoy being a mechanic much beyond regular maintenance stuff and all labor is expensive.

This truck has eaten a lot of money in the last 18 months - new transmission at 225K miles, fuel bowl delete at 232K because whole fuel system was leaking and falling apart, fuel and injection pressure sensors and regulators turbo pedestal, up pipes, at 235K, and now this at 239K miles. I use it hard pulling a dually GN flatbed hauling hay and hauling cows home this time of year. Usually short trips 100 miles or less. I have owned it since 1999 and put over 200K on it myself. I have gone years and not had to spend much money running this truck, but it seems to be falling apart all at once.

One thing for sure it's not worth anything right now.
Have you priced a long block. I would

 

[MurraysMutts]

Yes sir. New tranny already.
Check into a new engine and run another 200k

New trucks is lots n lots more

 

[greybeard]

New trucks is lots n lots more

$50k will get a cheap stripped down version...
I've bought nice homes for less than that (but not lately)

 

[Hoover]

I've worked on a lot of motors over the years, never cracked a head removing any bolt. I'd like to know how they cracked it. Did they get to hot with the welder, or did they break it off more, deeper in the head and used to big of an extractor wedging it in there?

 

[alacowman1]

Before I'd spend that much on a worn engine..I'd be looking for a replacement engine ,even if it's a little higher..it's cheaper to keep a old truck now ..and the money is good on used ones ..it'll be a investment more than a waste..

 

[DCA farm]

Yes sir. New tranny already.
Check into a new engine and run another 200k

New trucks is lots n lots more

Very true I blew turbos bent a rod on my 2020 it was under warranty they told me I was looking at 12-16 weeks waiting on parts and getting on schedule so I started browsing to trade it in on a 2020 f250 used with sameish miles but let me tell you they wanted me to finance 85,000-97,000 for a used truck I told the lost their ever loving minds. Dealership markup is stupid right now. I ended up getting a gas burnin 2019'f250 and I actually love it it does drink a bit of fuel but im
Ok with that

 

[farmerjan]

I put a new engine in my 2000 subaru forester and then the transmission started making noise so we got one of them too. Then I put a newer low mileage engine in the 2001 subaru outback. Neither cost me over 1500 when bought, put over 100,000 miles on each before the engine problems. Now have 2 very decent running vehicles again, for around $10,000 and I know any quirks they have. Priced some new ones and nearly had a heart attack... found a used 2003 forester for 7,000... nope... fixed mine. They get 22-26 mpg and insurance is low. Have a 2012 Big Ford explorer I bought off parents estate... $11,000 with only 48,000 miles on it... but it gets maybe 15-17 mpg and the insurance is way higher and it is not comfortable to drive.... got someone interested in it and will make a few thousand on it because there aren't any around... selling point for it is the low mileage....
We have several 95 to 99 ford diesel trucks, with varying mileage of 275 to 350,000 miles... they will get engines etc when the time comes... Have the one 2016 dually that was my fathers that my son bought from him a couple years ago.... and when there was an electronic chip problem it left us sitting ..... all the different monitors and crap.... NOPE, keeping the older ones for RELIABILITY and being able to fix and "jury rig" to get us home if need be.....

 

[GoWyo]

Subaru - never own another one. Kid got a 2006 Outback Legacy with 113K on it to take to college. Two years later had to replace the head gasket, which I found out later is a problem on that year. Then timing chain, then sensor after sensor. Now it is throwing a check engine light for fuel sensor or something that was recently replaced and it's good, so they think it is a wiring issue and want to replace the wiring harness for $1200 and if that doesn't fix it the bulkhead wiring harness for another $2000. It's sitting in the driveway for sale in excellent physical, but not sellable with current electrical problems. I've about had it with all the old junk we have that is is good condition, but worn out.

 

[Travlr]

They did call and said they had a stuck bolt and were going to work on getting it out. Didn't say they might crack the head, but I'm sure they didn't plan to crack it either.

This project started out as a $3200 job, which I was kind of choking on and with the cracked head they say another $3800 and with sales tax and some other incidentals it is going to be $8000. I should have most of a new engine for that. The parts are marked up some and the labor is pricey too, but I don't enjoy being a mechanic much beyond regular maintenance stuff and all labor is expensive.

This truck has eaten a lot of money in the last 18 months - new transmission at 225K miles, fuel bowl delete at 232K because whole fuel system was leaking and falling apart, fuel and injection pressure sensors and regulators turbo pedestal, up pipes, at 235K, and now this at 239K miles. I use it hard pulling a dually GN flatbed hauling hay and hauling cows home this time of year. Usually short trips 100 miles or less. I have owned it since 1999 and put over 200K on it myself. I have gone years and not had to spend much money running this truck, but it seems to be falling apart all at once.

Have you checked around to see if you can get a complete used engine? Replacing the engine would be much less labor than tearing one down and sometime you can find something low mileage for a reasonable price.

 

[Brute 23]

That's a bad deal but I would be looking for middle ground. I think they botched the deal and need to take responsibility for part of it. You don't take a job from $3200 to $8000 with out really clear discussion on the pros and cons.

 

[Atimm693]

I'm normally one to side with the shop, but I think they screwed up. Not likely the head cracked just from drilling, and it's easy to get a little off center or go too deep with the drill in such a tight space and get into the water jacket.

I'd make them show you the "crack" before handing over any money for a new head.

 

[TexasRancher]

Your truck has a newly rebuilt transmission $2k to $3k (so keep the truck)....I'd halt them in their tracks on the engine/manifolds (due to those costs) and tell them to push the truck outside the shop. I'd be checking around for new and USED engines. You be amazed at the quality of used engines with exceptional compression, minimal wear. I purchased a good used 5.7liter for my GMC truck for $550. shipping included and then had it installed for $700. ($1,300 fix) The used motor must have been rebuilt the oil stays amber color for 2 to 3 thousand miles.
Buy an extra good used engine sitting on a stock shelf, they can test-stand and check compression (many of them list the mileage when taken out of accident vehicle, 95k, 132k, 171k, ect ) , haggle the price down. Conclusion: $1,000. to $1,500 for a complete used engine with manifolds and lots of other parts, sensors!!! and $1,000. to install. Your broken truck would be a $2,500. fix in my world...mainly because I do all the footwork, engineering and let the shop know exactly what I want done (what best used parts where), with solid quote/price...and give tip at the end.

 

[mml373]

Yes sir. New tranny already.
Check into a new engine and run another 200k

New trucks is lots n lots more

Yeah, that's a good old truck he has. I love those old Fords. Plan to keep my '06 Ram (5.9L) for the rest of my life...the new trucks are too damned expensive.
I saw an ad for a new brand of electric heavy duty pickup (Atlis Motor Vehicles) last night. They're so expensive that the company will use a subscription model to market the trucks. $700/mo flat fee for insurance, registration, maintenance, inspections, truck payment, etc. 35,000 pound towing, 5000 pound payload, 0-60 in 5 seconds, and 500 mile range. But you'll never own it. You'll just pay a subscriber fee every month.