Pushing calves

[Bright Raven]

Every heifer that weighs around 800 lbs gets a embryo put in. John usually gives heifers 4 tries, twice with embryos and twice using AI. If they don't stick they go for a ride and are never exposed to a bull and are sold as open heifers. John swears that a heifer is more fertile than a cow. I go by what I see, and until I see different I'm sticking with his ideas.

Vince:

I provided my AI results in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=112881

I have a heifer that I took a third AI to stick. She has finally passed her first 21 day cycle. You commented that she should be culled.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Following is your comment:

I would cull what doesn't work for me. Personally I'd sell before the heifers go to a bull. That way you can still sell them as open heifers, and sleep at night.

BTW: Vince, I assume you have very few that require 4 attempts to get them bred!

 

[dun]

Well I guess there always has to be at least one naysayer. If the calves are being marketed as feeders I would think yo would get killed for them being over conditioned. As breeders I want mine to grow moderately. Heifers Growing well but not nay real fat, just well covered. Bulls the same although they will get a little grain after weaning till turn out with the cows.

 

[Bright Raven]

Well I guess there always has to be at least one naysayer. If the calves are being marketed as feeders I would think yo would get killed for them being over conditioned. As breeders I want mine to grow moderately. Heifers Growing well but not nay real fat, just well covered. Bulls the same although they will get a little grain after weaning till turn out with the cows.

I am glad you are home and on CT. Take care of yourself!

dun, I don't think I am pushing them too hard. They still are not accumulating fat. The article provided by Ken is consistent with what Dr. Eric Vanzant, University of Kentucky, Ruminant Nutrition specialist, stated at our annual meeting.

 

[dun]

Thanks. From the pictures, which can always fool you, they appear over conditioned to me

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Hey Dun, hope you're feeling better.
I have examined them pretty close and I see a lot of muscle & hair, Really don't see any fat, so I will agree that they are doing well. I have already given my "warnings" - LOL

 

[True Grit Farms]

Every heifer that weighs around 800 lbs gets a embryo put in. John usually gives heifers 4 tries, twice with embryos and twice using AI. If they don't stick they go for a ride and are never exposed to a bull and are sold as open heifers. John swears that a heifer is more fertile than a cow. I go by what I see, and until I see different I'm sticking with his ideas.

Vince:

I provided my AI results in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=112881

I have a heifer that I took a third AI to stick. She has finally passed her first 21 day cycle. You commented that she should be culled.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Following is your comment:

I would cull what doesn't work for me. Personally I'd sell before the heifers go to a bull. That way you can still sell them as open heifers, and sleep at night.

BTW: Vince, I assume you have very few that require 4 attempts to get them bred!

I don't breed this way my SS rep "John" breeds this way, let me make that clear first. He calves out 100 head and everything is AI or ET. If you can't stick a cow in four tries she isn't working for you under your management. To me this is number one in the cow business, don't make excuses for your cows. The breed you use and how manage them doesn't matter, as long as you and your cattle get the job done.
Raven how many chances do you give a cow to get bred under your management practices? Four tries using timed AI or ET is over a 100 day breeding season, and some operations can't live with that kind of management.

 

[Bright Raven]

Every heifer that weighs around 800 lbs gets a embryo put in. John usually gives heifers 4 tries, twice with embryos and twice using AI. If they don't stick they go for a ride and are never exposed to a bull and are sold as open heifers. John swears that a heifer is more fertile than a cow. I go by what I see, and until I see different I'm sticking with his ideas.

Vince:

I provided my AI results in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=112881

I have a heifer that I took a third AI to stick. She has finally passed her first 21 day cycle. You commented that she should be culled.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Following is your comment:

I would cull what doesn't work for me. Personally I'd sell before the heifers go to a bull. That way you can still sell them as open heifers, and sleep at night.

BTW: Vince, I assume you have very few that require 4 attempts to get them bred!

I don't breed this way my SS rep "John" breeds this way, let me make that clear first. He calves out 100 head and everything is AI or ET. If you can't stick a cow in four tries she isn't working for you under your management. To me this is number one in the cow business, don't make excuses for your cows. The breed you use and how manage them doesn't matter, as long as you and your cattle get the job done.
Raven how many chances do you give a cow to get bred under your management practices? Four tries using timed AI or ET is over a 100 day breeding season, and some operations can't live with that kind of management.

Thanks. That makes it more clear.

In my operation, I would not give a cow/heifer 4 attempts. I bred my 16 cows in 17 attempts.

The 5 heifers I bred did not go as well:

2 stuck on first attempt.
1 stuck on second attempt.
1 stuck on third attempt.

And I still have one that was bred a second time that is waiting to pass.

The one heifer that took three attempts was difficult. Her reproductive system is unremarkable. She simply fidgets so much during AI, that I was having difficulty with placing the semen appropriately.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Vince:

I provided my AI results in the following thread:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=112881

I have a heifer that I took a third AI to stick. She has finally passed her first 21 day cycle. You commented that she should be culled.

Is this another one of those "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Following is your comment:

I would cull what doesn't work for me. Personally I'd sell before the heifers go to a bull. That way you can still sell them as open heifers, and sleep at night.

BTW: Vince, I assume you have very few that require 4 attempts to get them bred!

I don't breed this way my SS rep "John" breeds this way, let me make that clear first. He calves out 100 head and everything is AI or ET. If you can't stick a cow in four tries she isn't working for you under your management. To me this is number one in the cow business, don't make excuses for your cows. The breed you use and how manage them doesn't matter, as long as you and your cattle get the job done.
Raven how many chances do you give a cow to get bred under your management practices? Four tries using timed AI or ET is over a 100 day breeding season, and some operations can't live with that kind of management.

Thanks. That makes it more clear.

In my operation, I would not give a cow/heifer 4 attempts. I bred my 16 cows in 17 attempts.

The 5 heifers I bred did not go as well:

2 stuck on first attempt.
1 stuck on second attempt.
1 stuck on third attempt.

And I still have one that was bred a second time that is waiting to pass.

The one heifer that took three attempts was difficult. Her reproductive system is unremarkable. She simply fidgets so much during AI, that I was having difficulty with placing the semen appropriately.

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

 

[Bright Raven]

I don't breed this way my SS rep "John" breeds this way, let me make that clear first. He calves out 100 head and everything is AI or ET. If you can't stick a cow in four tries she isn't working for you under your management. To me this is number one in the cow business, don't make excuses for your cows. The breed you use and how manage them doesn't matter, as long as you and your cattle get the job done.
Raven how many chances do you give a cow to get bred under your management practices? Four tries using timed AI or ET is over a 100 day breeding season, and some operations can't live with that kind of management.

Thanks. That makes it more clear.

In my operation, I would not give a cow/heifer 4 attempts. I bred my 16 cows in 17 attempts.

The 5 heifers I bred did not go as well:

2 stuck on first attempt.
1 stuck on second attempt.
1 stuck on third attempt.

And I still have one that was bred a second time that is waiting to pass.

The one heifer that took three attempts was difficult. Her reproductive system is unremarkable. She simply fidgets so much during AI, that I was having difficulty with placing the semen appropriately.

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

I have had good rates for two years. I put a great effort into heat detection. I am very particular about adhering to the technique including semen handling. I expect no less than 75% conception. Other factors that contribute are fertile cows in good condition on a first class mineral.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

Since fall breeding season started, we have AI'd 18 head, 17 stuck the first attempt (all natural heats). The one that did not stick the first time passed over on the second breeding. Her cervix was very small, and just a bump. My oldest daughter bred 15 of those (including the one that came back in), the middle daughter bred the other two (and stuck the heifer on her second heat - her sister could not get through the cervix, so she handed it over to the middle daughter and she did it!).
Now, in contrast, I set up 7 cows with a CiDR for embryos. 6 clustered tight enough to take to the vet to get embryos (the 7th got an embryo two days later, and stuck it). Only two of the six stuck embryos, and one of those two absorbed her pregnancy at 60 days bred (she has been AI bred, will be 21 days next weekend). The 4 that did not stick got a second embryo, only one of those stuck. We AI'd the remaining three the third cycle, and they stuck.
Natural heats and good heat detection are critical to get those kinds of results. It is done all over, most people do not brag about it.
Dairy cattle are a totally different story; high milk production in a stressful environment is not helpful.

 

[dun]

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

 

[True Grit Farms]

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

That's being a little tough Dun. Besides having his arm stuck in a cow more than a thousand times a week. He sells semen, tanks and services them during the week. And then plays with his 100 head of registered hobby cattle when he can, between 2 kids showing pigs and cows, being a single parent with full custody, and doing all his own AI, embryo collection and transfer work himself. I think he does quite well myself. And as a matter of fact he's going to work himself to death doing what he love's.

 

[dun]

I told my buddy about your success rates, he doesn't believe there's any way, I believe there is myself. He told me If you have a 35% conception rate in the dairy business your at the top of the class. Heat detection is the key, anyone that's AI cows knows when the tip of the gun is in the right place. There's things you can do to relax a cow...just don't over use it.

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

That's being a little tough Dun. Besides having his arm stuck in a cow more than a thousand times a week. He sells semen, tanks and services them during the week. And then plays with his 100 head of registered hobby cattle when he can, between 2 kids showing pigs and cows, being a single parent with full custody, and doing all his own AI, embryo collection and transfer work himself. I think he does quite well myself. And as a matter of fact he's going to work himself to death doing what he love's.

At 35% there is something wrong. All but one of the dairymen I know around her un well over 50%. Back when I did we synced most of a herd, 131 head. Of the 78 I bred 74 settled. That's why I see a problem with that poor of a success rate. That herd has a nutrionilst on board and his rate went way up when he started doing what the nutrition gal told him.
Could it be that familiarity breeds contemp in as much as he just takes some short cuts withou him realizing it

 

[Bright Raven]

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

That's being a little tough Dun. Besides having his arm stuck in a cow more than a thousand times a week. He sells semen, tanks and services them during the week. And then plays with his 100 head of registered hobby cattle when he can, between 2 kids showing pigs and cows, being a single parent with full custody, and doing all his own AI, embryo collection and transfer work himself. I think he does quite well myself. And as a matter of fact he's going to work himself to death doing what he love's.

Vince, you threw everything but the kitchen sink into that list of excuses. :hat:

 

[True Grit Farms]

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

That's being a little tough Dun. Besides having his arm stuck in a cow more than a thousand times a week. He sells semen, tanks and services them during the week. And then plays with his 100 head of registered hobby cattle when he can, between 2 kids showing pigs and cows, being a single parent with full custody, and doing all his own AI, embryo collection and transfer work himself. I think he does quite well myself. And as a matter of fact he's going to work himself to death doing what he love's.

Vince, you threw everything but the kitchen sink into that list of excuses. :hat:

No doubt. Our Georgia farmer of the year happens to be one of the dairies he works for. They had a 38% conception rate on first service. The adverage 500+ head dairies in middle Georgia adverage less than a 30% conception rate. I was hoping he'd come on CT, but he says he's to busy to play around. Pretty good write up and no slouch on nutrition.
http://sunbeltexpo.com/everett-williams ... -the-year/

 

[True Grit Farms]

Your buddy needs to either examine his AI and heat detection skills or look into his nutritional program

That's being a little tough Dun. Besides having his arm stuck in a cow more than a thousand times a week. He sells semen, tanks and services them during the week. And then plays with his 100 head of registered hobby cattle when he can, between 2 kids showing pigs and cows, being a single parent with full custody, and doing all his own AI, embryo collection and transfer work himself. I think he does quite well myself. And as a matter of fact he's going to work himself to death doing what he love's.

Vince, you threw everything but the kitchen sink into that list of excuses. :hat:

Raven I don't make excuses just stating facts. I thought this guy was full of bull when I met him. But your buddy CP told me he wasn't, and you can definitely call a cow bred at 28 days using your hand.
This guy quit teaching biology in high school to breed cows. He's also the guy I told you about if you ever wanted to come down on Mondays I'd hook you up with. He'll even let you look into a microscope and see embryos ranging in quality from 1 through 4.

 

[Bright Raven]

Raven I don't make excuses just stating facts. I thought this guy was full of bull when I met him. But your buddy CP told me he wasn't, and you can definitely call a cow bred at 28 days using your hand.
This guy quit teaching biology in high school to breed cows. He's also the guy I told you about if you ever wanted to come down on Mondays I'd hook you up with. He'll even let you look into a microscope and see embryos ranging in quality from 1 through 4.

I am not doubting him. I only know I have approximately a better that 75% conception rate on my cows. My vet tells me what hurts his conception rate is producers who schedule him to perform an AI and when he gets there, he finds out the producer doesn't have any idea where the cow is in her estrus cycle. I am convinced good heat detection is as important as semen handling and placement.

Is he also certified to flush and transfer embryos?

 

[dun]

Raven I don't make excuses just stating facts. I thought this guy was full of bull when I met him. But your buddy CP told me he wasn't, and you can definitely call a cow bred at 28 days using your hand.
This guy quit teaching biology in high school to breed cows. He's also the guy I told you about if you ever wanted to come down on Mondays I'd hook you up with. He'll even let you look into a microscope and see embryos ranging in quality from 1 through 4.

I am not doubting him. I only know I have approximately a better that 75% conception rate on my cows. My vet tells me what hurts his conception rate is producers who schedule him to perform an AI and when he gets there, he finds out the producer doesn't have any idea where the cow is in her estrus cycle. I am convinced good heat detection is as important as semen handling and placement.

Is he also certified to flush and transfer embryos?

The difference between beef herds and dairys makes conception rates apples and oranges. If the loe first service conception is basicly the same in every herd then so be it. When I was DHIA testing here I found the conception rate varied significantly. The herd I AIed for was the second highest in the area. A lot of the daries ended up running bulls because the rate was so poor. Even with a bull their calving intervals ran 16-18 months with a few closer to 2 years. That's what made me start thinking of management as being the issue.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Raven I don't make excuses just stating facts. I thought this guy was full of bull when I met him. But your buddy CP told me he wasn't, and you can definitely call a cow bred at 28 days using your hand.
This guy quit teaching biology in high school to breed cows. He's also the guy I told you about if you ever wanted to come down on Mondays I'd hook you up with. He'll even let you look into a microscope and see embryos ranging in quality from 1 through 4.

I am not doubting him. I only know I have approximately a better that 75% conception rate on my cows. My vet tells me what hurts his conception rate is producers who schedule him to perform an AI and when he gets there, he finds out the producer doesn't have any idea where the cow is in her estrus cycle. I am convinced good heat detection is as important as semen handling and placement.

Is he also certified to flush and transfer embryos?

https://www.etschool.com/instructor.asp
No he is not certified, but he adverages 45% between fresh and frozen transfers.

 

[Bright Raven]

https://www.etschool.com/instructor.asp
No he is not certified, but he adverages 45% between fresh and frozen transfers.

Vince,

Thanks for that link. Dr. R. Peter Elsden knows Dr. James Spears. Dr. Spears also served on The American Embryo Transfer Association. Dr. Spears was a professor and is a personal friend. In one of the classes I took under Dr. Spears, we performed Embryo Transfers on mice.

Dr. Spears got his PhD at the University of Kentucky in Reproductive Physiology. He taught at Morehead State University while I was there. He still practices out of Franklin Kentucky. I keep up with him on Facebook. If I were 10 years younger, I would get my certification in ET. I have done it on mice, I know I could do it on cows.