Protein supplementation

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I have gone on a quandary! I just got my test results back from 100 bales I picked up, and now I am looking at supplementation. The hay tested at 10% protein, 50.7 TDN, and a RFV of 80. Since half of my herd is nursing fall calves, and we have several each month until March that will be calving, I need more protein to maintain body weight on my cows. We do not supplement feed, nor creep calves. I have Vitaferm Conceptaide out with free choice salt, so my mineral program is up to snuff. I am hoping to find a protein supplement to go with the hay.
Here is some items I found:
I can get a lick tank, that has QLF Pature Plus 34/6 liquid feed (34% protein). The tank (for a 125 gallon lick tank) is $250 to purchase, and each time I fill it it will cost $250 (the liquid feed is $18.20/cwt). I used a round number of 20 cows, and came up with that tank lasting about 34 days (2 pounds a day average consumption). The liquid feed has NO fat in it. It does have some Urea in it (I think that is what the 6 stands for, 6% urea protein).
I have also found a 32:19 tub. This is a 200 pound tub, containing 32% protein, and average consumption is 1 to 1 1/4 pounds a day per cow. This tub has 19% of the protein coming from Urea. The tub cost $92, and would last around 10 days (20 cows eating one pound a day). It contains 5% fat.

How much of an impact with the urea have in the digestibility of these two sources of supplement? How important is the fat? Am I figuring this out correctly? Are they comparable in price, excluding the purchase price of a lick tank?
TB, help me out here! Any other ideas for a source of protein that is cheap and easy? Or is this the best way? I learned after the 2012 drought to NOT skimp on my cows. That year we had junk hay, and gave no supplements. My conception rates suffered on into the fall breeding season of 2013, and it took me a while to gain back what I had lost in one winter of sub-par feed. I will NOT go down that road again.

 

[Howdyjabo]

What is the DM % on the liquid?

 

[TexasBred]

Fire Sweep. Check with local feed and see if any have a 38% cube. These are usually pure cottonseed meal in cube form. I've fed them the past loved them. '

TDN over 70 and good energy levels and should be more cost effective.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Fire Sweep. Check with local feed and see if any have a 38% cube. These are usually pure cottonseed meal in cube form. I've fed them the past loved them. '

TDN over 70 and good energy levels and should be more cost effective.

I'll call tomorrow and see TB about the cubes. We are not near cotton gins, so when I buy the loose hulls to add to the show diets, it gets pricy ($10 a 40 pound sack). I'll ask if they carry a cube.

The liquid feed has DM of 62%.

Thanks again TB, about 2 more days of grass than we are on hay until the next grass hopefully in March!

 

[inyati13]

Kris, you know I am forever the skeptic so let me ask: How are you sure that the poor conception rates were due to nutrition and specifically Protein?

Why I ask? I have had my hay tested and with the exception of purchased alfalfa/grass square bales in the 80 pound range going for $5 per bale, the rolled hay in this area which is mostly fescue, will rarely go above 10% protein. How do I know: I am Vice President of our county chapter of the KY Cattle Asso and our leader for the chapter is our UK County Extension Agent. She does hay analysis for $10 a pop. My own hay from my farm runs only 10% protein. I am not too disappointed unless I get hay below 8%. I know Shannon says lots of the hay in the county runs in the 5% range. If you see what some people roll for hay, you would not be surprised. Most don't even bother to test their hay and I know why. :lol: My neighbor seems to have good conception rates and some of his cows look very poor!

Personally, I have had excellent conception rates. I realize I have a small sample but it approaches 100%. I did put out protein tubs last winter and I have put two out to begin this winter. And on your and TB's advice, I am now using Vitaferm Conceptaid which I believe has inproved my herds health although my conception rate was already near 100%. But my hay is under 10% protein.

The point: What are the other possible factors that may have caused the poor conception in 2013?

 

[Howdyjabo]

I would go with the lick tank. It would tend to deliver more energy along with the protein than the blocks will.
Urea pushes protein up without adding any energy and the fat added is not enough to make up the difference.

Cows(actually all animals) have a natural control mechanism to deal with environmental changes. If a cow is losing weight conception levels will drop. Their system assumes there is going to be a lack of food to sustain a calf and slows down. A cow that is skinny but maintaining weight will see no change in conception, their system assumes things are like they always are and the cow will get by another year.
The cool thing is that nature makes sure that the ones in the best shape keep producing even if they are losing weight.It just lowers the overall numbers to give them a chance to survive. And naturally select for the best to reproduce over the others.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Ron
I know my conceptions were low due to poor quality feed because we dropped at least 2 body condition scores on every cow that winter and spring. When you AI and put in embryos, your cows should be in top shape to accept the lower quality spermatozoa or embryo. The only hay we could find that winter to feed was twigs and leaves that were baled. We lost a lot of ground that winter, and we were not able to make much up over the summer, since the rain was limited and our numbers should have been lower. Since switching to Vitaferm and checking my protein in my hay, I have improved my conception rates, and had 100% embryo conception last fall and 95% this spring. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Ron, your cows would need a very lean year to affect any type of conception on your place. By all pictures, your cows are obese and do not need protein supplements.
TB, I looked to the feed store, no cubes like that here. They sell a purina range cube, 20% protein, but it runs 18/cwt, so the other options are better. We have no cotton mills around, so that commodity is not cheap in this area. The nutritionist did say that cheap protein, if you have bunks, is DDG's. They are dirt cheap right now, and I thought of that because we have the cow that twinned on DDG's right now. But I am not sure I want to do a daily dump of 50 pounds of dry distillers... and I would need to get a few more bunks.
Howdy - The liquid has no fat in it. And, I am looking at a purchase price of $250 and having something I have to store over the summer. I am not sure that is the direction I want to go. I still have time to decide, and can change mid stream if I feel like I am not getting what I need.

 

[M5farm]

Ron
I know my conceptions were low due to poor quality feed because we dropped at least 2 body condition scores on every cow that winter and spring. When you AI and put in embryos, your cows should be in top shape to accept the lower quality spermatozoa or embryo. The only hay we could find that winter to feed was twigs and leaves that were baled. We lost a lot of ground that winter, and we were not able to make much up over the summer, since the rain was limited and our numbers should have been lower. Since switching to Vitaferm and checking my protein in my hay, I have improved my conception rates, and had 100% embryo conception last fall and 95% this spring. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Ron, your cows would need a very lean year to affect any type of conception on your place. By all pictures, your cows are obese and do not need protein supplements.
TB, I looked to the feed store, no cubes like that here. They sell a purina range cube, 20% protein, but it runs 18/cwt, so the other options are better. We have no cotton mills around, so that commodity is not cheap in this area. The nutritionist did say that cheap protein, if you have bunks, is DDG's. They are dirt cheap right now, and I thought of that because we have the cow that twinned on DDG's right now. But I am not sure I want to do a daily dump of 50 pounds of dry distillers... and I would need to get a few more bunks.
Howdy - The liquid has no fat in it. And, I am looking at a purchase price of $250 and having something I have to store over the summer. I am not sure that is the direction I want to go. I still have time to decide, and can change mid stream if I feel like I am not getting what I need.

we leave them out all year. they will still consume some of the liquid during the summer but not as much as they do when feeding hay.

 

[highgrit]

Sounds like another added expense that you wouldn't need if you weren't strictly AI. If my cows don't come up pregnant 3 months after having their calf, their going on a road trip. Commercial operations need easy doing cows.

 

[M5farm]

Fsr I posted plans on the other thread on homemade liquid feeder. You could get materials together and have your local 4h or ffa build it. Once yours was built they could build more and sell them to raise funds. It would be a great project to teach kids.

 

[Larbo]

You dont need feed bunks to feed ddgs. Make little piles on the ground about every 10 ft. or so. There is virtually no waste. 2 or 3 lbs a day will do wonders for cows on mediocre hay. You control the intake vs. tubs or lick tanks that you have no control over. You can also just feed it every other day or even every third day. Plus a lot cheaper!

 

[TexasBred]

TB, I looked to the feed store, no cubes like that here. They sell a purina range cube, 20% protein, but it runs 18/cwt, so the other options are better. We have no cotton mills around, so that commodity is not cheap in this area. The nutritionist did say that cheap protein, if you have bunks, is DDG's. They are dirt cheap right now, and I thought of that because we have the cow that twinned on DDG's right now. But I am not sure I want to do a daily dump of 50 pounds of dry distillers... and I would need to get a few more bunks.
Howdy - The liquid has no fat in it. And, I am looking at a purchase price of $250 and having something I have to store over the summer. I am not sure that is the direction I want to go. I still have time to decide, and can change mid stream if I feel like I am not getting what I need.

Dang...Liquid feed has very little energy and you may be looking at a negative energy balance in your cattle. That can affect conceptions. But it's somewhat cheap and takes zero effort to feed. DDG is a great product but I'd dilute it 2 parts cracked corn with 1 part DDG. They get protein, energy and you'll be feeding something that will produce milk, increase energy in the diet greatly and put those cows in shape to really work for you.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Sounds like another added expense that you wouldn't need if you weren't strictly AI. If my cows don't come up pregnant 3 months after having their calf, their going on a road trip. Commercial operations need easy doing cows.

Not necessarily Highgrit. If my cows do not take to AI or an embryo, they are shipped, so they need to more fertile than the average cow. I have yet to supplement the cows in any year except when my hay ran low one year. However, I am always looking at options to prevent the setback I had after the drought several years ago when I should have supplemented the cows. If I had a bull to run then, I am sure the cows would have been bred.
I have since learned a lesson from that year, when I sold some pretty good wet 2 year olds that did not take to AI as open cows at market prices. I try to keep a yearling bull around, and if I have a cow that will not take after 2 AI attempts, let the bull have her and sell her later as a heavy bred or pair. Since I started that, ALL of my cows get bred, and the late ones find new homes where AI is not necessary.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Fsr I posted plans on the other thread on homemade liquid feeder. You could get materials together and have your local 4h or ffa build it. Once yours was built they could build more and sell them to raise funds. It would be a great project to teach kids.

What thread was that? Do you remember the name? Awesome idea!

 

[M5farm]

Fsr I posted plans on the other thread on homemade liquid feeder. You could get materials together and have your local 4h or ffa build it. Once yours was built they could build more and sell them to raise funds. It would be a great project to teach kids.

What thread was that? Do you remember the name? Awesome idea!

Lick tank
.viewtopic.php?f=7&t=95195&p=1192836#p1192836

 

[pricefarm]

Dang...Liquid feed has very little energy and you may be looking at a negative energy balance in your cattle. That can affect conceptions. But it's somewhat cheap and takes zero effort to feed. DDG is a great product but I'd dilute it 2 parts cracked corn with 1 part DDG. They get protein, energy and you'll be feeding something that will produce milk, increase energy in the diet greatly and put those cows in shape to really work for you.[/quote]

So with two parts corn one part ddg what protein % would that be? Also with his hay results how much of that mix would you feed per cow? Thanks for the info

 

[TexasBred]

Dang...Liquid feed has very little energy and you may be looking at a negative energy balance in your cattle. That can affect conceptions. But it's somewhat cheap and takes zero effort to feed. DDG is a great product but I'd dilute it 2 parts cracked corn with 1 part DDG. They get protein, energy and you'll be feeding something that will produce milk, increase energy in the diet greatly and put those cows in shape to really work for you.

So with two parts corn one part ddg what protein % would that be? Also with his hay results how much of that mix would you feed per cow? Thanks for the info[/quote]
Only about 14% or so as DDG varies greaty in protein. Used that ratio only for simplicity. Feed enough to at least make it worth while...5-6 lbs. per head per day at least along with the hay. A 1:1 mix with corn would give around 16-17% crude protein and could be easily used as well and fed at the same rate. I know a lot of folks don't like to supplement because of cost but getting one extra cow bred and bred on time will easily cover your expense. Too often we feed our cows "junk" and expect them to perform like champions. WE are the problem.

 

[pricefarm]

Thanks TB for the info. I have a lot of ear corn this year that Iam not going to sell because corn is so cheap so Iam going to supplement my cows some and creep feed my calves. Wasn't sure exactly how many pounds per cow to feed them. I haven't got my hay tested yet but the protein I would think would be around 10-12 % it's mostly just fescue with a little clover but it was cut and baled at the right time with no rain damage and has been kept in the barn.

 

[inyati13]

Ron
I know my conceptions were low due to poor quality feed because we dropped at least 2 body condition scores on every cow that winter and spring. When you AI and put in embryos, your cows should be in top shape to accept the lower quality spermatozoa or embryo. The only hay we could find that winter to feed was twigs and leaves that were baled. We lost a lot of ground that winter, and we were not able to make much up over the summer, since the rain was limited and our numbers should have been lower. Since switching to Vitaferm and checking my protein in my hay, I have improved my conception rates, and had 100% embryo conception last fall and 95% this spring. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Ron, your cows would need a very lean year to affect any type of conception on your place. By all pictures, your cows are obese and do not need protein supplements.
TB, I looked to the feed store, no cubes like that here. They sell a purina range cube, 20% protein, but it runs 18/cwt, so the other options are better. We have no cotton mills around, so that commodity is not cheap in this area. The nutritionist did say that cheap protein, if you have bunks, is DDG's. They are dirt cheap right now, and I thought of that because we have the cow that twinned on DDG's right now. But I am not sure I want to do a daily dump of 50 pounds of dry distillers... and I would need to get a few more bunks.
Howdy - The liquid has no fat in it. And, I am looking at a purchase price of $250 and having something I have to store over the summer. I am not sure that is the direction I want to go. I still have time to decide, and can change mid stream if I feel like I am not getting what I need.

Wow. Obese! I just had a talk with Panda Bear. I told her you said she was obese. Now she wants counseling. Let me give you a clue, "Females are offended by the term OBESE." Couldn't you have used the BCS metrics? My girls like the BCS metrics applied to them when I discuss their condition. I never say they are fat or have pones on their butt. I am gentle with my girls. I know you talk to your cows too. You should know that God never created a creature as senstive as a Bovine.

Let me leave you with this bit of my history. In Kentucky, women acknowledge that "he$$ knows no fury like a woman scorned" with one exception. And that is when a man calls a Kentucky woman fat. I learned that in my youth. I was visited in my off-campus domicle by a healthy young college girl in 1972. My roommate smoked. She was sitting at the table while I was reclined on the couch. I accidently acknowledged that she was a little fat. The last thing I remember is a heavy sharp edged glass ashtray hurled through the air. She may have been on the robustside but she could really throw an ashtray.

 

[M5farm]

Ron
I know my conceptions were low due to poor quality feed because we dropped at least 2 body condition scores on every cow that winter and spring. When you AI and put in embryos, your cows should be in top shape to accept the lower quality spermatozoa or embryo. The only hay we could find that winter to feed was twigs and leaves that were baled. We lost a lot of ground that winter, and we were not able to make much up over the summer, since the rain was limited and our numbers should have been lower. Since switching to Vitaferm and checking my protein in my hay, I have improved my conception rates, and had 100% embryo conception last fall and 95% this spring. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Ron, your cows would need a very lean year to affect any type of conception on your place. By all pictures, your cows are obese and do not need protein supplements.
TB, I looked to the feed store, no cubes like that here. They sell a purina range cube, 20% protein, but it runs 18/cwt, so the other options are better. We have no cotton mills around, so that commodity is not cheap in this area. The nutritionist did say that cheap protein, if you have bunks, is DDG's. They are dirt cheap right now, and I thought of that because we have the cow that twinned on DDG's right now. But I am not sure I want to do a daily dump of 50 pounds of dry distillers... and I would need to get a few more bunks.
Howdy - The liquid has no fat in it. And, I am looking at a purchase price of $250 and having something I have to store over the summer. I am not sure that is the direction I want to go. I still have time to decide, and can change mid stream if I feel like I am not getting what I need.

ow. Obese! I just had a talk with Panda Bear. I told her you said she was obese. Now she wants counseling. Let me give you a clue, "Females are offended by the term OBESE." Couldn't you have used the BCS metrics? My girls like the BCS metrics applied to them when I discuss their condition. I never say they are fat or have pones on their butt. I am gentle with my girls. I know you talk to your cows too. You should know that God never created a creature as senstive as a Bovine.

Let me leave you with this bit of my history. In Kentucky, women acknowledge that "he$$ knows no fury like a woman scorned" with one exception. And that is when a man calls a Kentucky woman fat. I learned that in my youth. I was visited in my off-campus domicle by a healthy young college girl in 1972. My roommate smoked. She was sitting at the table while I was reclined on the couch. I accidently acknowledged that she was a little fat. The last thing I remember is a heavy sharp edged glass ashtray hurled through the air. She may have been on the robustside but she could really throw an ashtray.

I agree please refer to his cows from this point forward having a BCS 20.