Pregnancy rates and breed lengths (looking for advice)

[dph]

Looking for some advice. All of our cows are currently bred natural service. We run a 63 day breeding season for first calf heifers, give second calf heifers 75 days, and give cows 63 days unless we have a bull get hurt or something and if so we might give them another 10 or so, for some insurance. Our open rate when figuring cows exposed runs from 8-9% including the heifer calves. Is this acceptable for that length of a breeding season? We had 2 open heifers out of 22 this year, but lost one "would have been" second calf heifer and two young cows out of 20, and five cows out of the remaining 68. My uncle and cousin claim a better breeding rate, around 5% open, but they run a 90 day calving season. I like the shorter season for a nicer group of calves when we sell feeders.

We use Purina mineral free choice, using chelated mineral for the heifer calves and first calf heifers just before and during the front part of the breeding period. We have been able to make a lot of strides in % of calves in the first 42 days, etc. This year it was just short of 86%. Which lends me to believe the mineral is doing a good job. But the preg rate lends me to believe we might be able to do better with something else. We run 20-25 cows/bull, and rotate them through pasture, some containing fescue. They have been in excellnet shape the past few years. Half the cows we lost were among the last 15% to calf last year. Two were pretty old, and one of course had just had her first calf. Is there anything I can do to keep them from slipping out the back, or are some just bound to go that route? Thanks

 

[cypressfarms]

Dph,

For my opinion, there's two schools of thought here.

First is that a longer breeding period would probably give you a better preg. rate.

Second is that a shorter breeding period will help you cull cows that are not as fertile. Since fertility is so important, you may choose this one. All to often people don't seem to cull enough. Even the best cow isn't worth it if you don't get a calf from her every year. by yearly culling those that are not preg. you will constantly improve the fertility of your cows. If you are gonna go with the shorter season you may want to think about more bulls per cow. Could it be that you have so many cows in cycle at the same time, that the bulls just can't get to all of them. With 63 days, there isn't a lot of time for missed chances.


This is all assuming that your bulls have been semen tested and have had soundness exams.

 

[dph]

All bulls are tested yearly. I don't mind culling the open cows, what I wonder is why is the % of them staying constant instead of decreasing in the last 4 years. No, I don't really care to up the bull power to them to be frank. For what we have invested in them, the more calves the better. The 68 cows were in 40 - 35 acre paddocks this year. Keeps the herd together and the 3 bulls close at hand. Usually we keep a bull back as a spare, and then go ahead and turn him out with the rest after 42 days, roughly. The main reason we like the shorter calving season is the calves go from three cuts when they go through the ring to two. Same number, but you drop the stragglers. The June calves never weigh much.

We also believe in culling the cows not as fertile as the rest, but you would think you would have begun to gradually see the concept have an effect by now. I was just looking for a little tip to do a little bit better.

 

[msscamp]

When do you finish calving and when do you turn the bulls in with the cows?

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't know if this would help; but since you have 3 bulls the dominant bull is probably breeding 80% of the cows. If he is running a little dry that could account for your problems. Next year turn in two bulls for 42 days; then pull those two bulls and let the fresh bull bat cleanup by himself for 21 days. To be completely safe you could turn back in the other two for a final twenty one days.

 

[Scotty]

give second calf heifers 75 days


Scotty

 

[dph]

Msscamp, this year we finished calving the 28th of May. We turn the bulls out the 14th of June for the cows, which starts us calving around March 25th or so. The heifers meet the bull the first of june, and we will usually turn the bull in with the second calfers on the 7th.

 

[cypressfarms]

Brandon may be hitting on something there. Last year my next door neighbor had three huge mature angus bulls but all they did was fight. He pulled the older bulls and put in three young (18-24 months) bulls. He then finished off the breeding season with the older bulls again. He was breeding for 90 days, but he only culled 4 cows out of 150 that weren't pregnant.

Dph, is the profit that you make from the more uniform calves more than what you might make with more calves?

 

[dph]

As far as fighting bulls go, seems to be very dependent on bulls. The group this year seem to get along the best we have ever had. They are the most quiet in disposition, very similar in age, and didn't seem to have too much trouble remembering the pecking order. Often you would travel over and find the bulls split up, each with their own cows. I just don't beleive the problem is with the bulls, but hey I am asking for advice, and I will keep taking any anyone has to offer.

As far as a uniform calf crop, yea. Mid 7 weight calves are bringing close to $900/ head, what are the upper 5 weight calves bringing? Plus they always seem to sell a little better when you have a big bunch of steers, rather than a few here, a few there, and a few over there. It really isn't a trade off in the number of calves, as much as it is replacing the late calves with earlier ones. Each cow's way is paid by her calf, and if one cow is raising a calf bringing the incredible price of $900/head, and another cow's steer is selling for $650, I figure there is another $250 to be had somewhere, you know? Some people figure it another way, they say they can turn a profit at the $650/head price so the cow should stay, but I think you are losing easily $100 if the calf in 100 pounds off the average.

My Uncle uses the same approach that you guys are talking about with rotating bulls, thing is if you just turn out two, or one at a time, and he runs into some trouble and you don't notice it, you will be hip deep in it yourself. At least that is what I worry about.

Nobody has really said, is 8-9% open per cows exposed good, mediocre or....

 

[msscamp]

We have had very few problems with open cows after the breeding season, ever. In the last 5 years we have had exactly 1 2-year old come up open after breeding season, but we only have about 43 head of cows and another 14 or so head of heifers. Those numbers have been the average for the last 5 years as Dad is 73 and retired (sort of). Even when we had 3-500 head of cows we did not have problems with open cows, but our breeding season has almost always been 90 days and we have always started calving the middle of February until the ranch was sold and the numbers decreased at which point calving was moved to the middle of March.

 

[dph]

msscamp: I looked it up, you asked when the last calf was had, and I mentioned the 28th of May, according to what I recorded, only four cows calved between May 8th and May 28th. One of the four was one of our open ones. I would think you would have a stellar pregnancy rate, indicative of a long time selecting for good, reproductive heifers.

I hope noboby gets ticked that I am "overposting" This is the second of two things I am really interested in learning more about in improving our herd.

Truth be told, we started a 63 day calving cycle because it was the target numerous "experts" said to shoot for. And when I ask the vet about our pregnancy rate they say its about what one should expect and not to worry about what someone else claims their rate to be. When you look up benchmarks, often they mention you want the open rate less than 10% per cows exposed. We are there, but I know people are doing better, and I would like to know how. Maybe we are expecting to quick of a pay off.

 

[msscamp]

Truth be told, we started a 63 day calving cycle because it was the target numerous "experts" said to shoot for.

It is my experience that a good percentage of the 'experts' are desk jockeys that don't have a clue what they are talking about. Things have a way of working out when it comes to numbers on paper or in theory that just don't pan out in real life. I would suggest you work towards a breeding plan that works for you and your long range plans and the 'experts' be damned. Just my thoughts.

 

[bullred]

dph,

Are you raising replacement heifers or bringing them in from outside your herd? If you are raising them, are you keeping only the ones from the "early calvers". I think with a 63 breeding season, anything less than 10% open is acceptable. but unless your replacement pool has a higher level of fertility than what you are culling you can't automatically assume you'll see an improvement. Youth doesn't always assure you an improvement in fertility.

Your analysis of the benefit of replacing a cow producing a $600 calf with one producing a $900 calf is dead on! What you are talking about is opportunity cost, and this is a concept that a lot of people (from all businesses) fail to understand. Yes, you can make money with a cow that produces $600 calves, but she's taking up space that could be filled with a $900/calf producer.

I don't know what your temperatures are like in Iowa, but that same breeding season would be a little late along the Gulf Coast. Texas A&M has some good information regarding climate and conception rates. High temperatures reduce conception precentages. Our typical breeding season is March-May, as it can get pretty warm in June.

CJ

 

[cypressfarms]

Opportunity Costs

Brings back memories of LSU.

DPH, I think that below 10% is acceptable, and it sounds like your gaining from the trade off vs. a 90 day period.

Last month at the local auction a cattleman brought in his calves, and they all looked like they were born on the same day. He got premium prices too. They ran all of his calves back to back, and the bidders were eating em up. I thought that he got much more than the calves were worth, but bringing in 100 calves that uniform says something about this cattleman.

 

[Cowboymom]

You are getting very acceptable conception rates for the period you are running your bulls. We run our bulls the same time and get about the same or a percent or two better.

There is always panic in the chutes when we come up with a couple of open cows, if it was one bull not doing his job. I check and it is always across the board. A good vet can tell you if that cow bred and lost it or if something is wrong with her.

One thing that we did start doing that increased our conception rates was to vibrio/lepto our cows twice a year. Once when we preg and again when we turn the bulls out. That brought us up about 5% and we have a very closed herd.
Deer carry lepto.

The thing that always amazes me is that people get really excited about conception rates but then they forget about how many dry cows they have when they wean. That is what drives me nuts. I want to know what happened.....I know we had some calves stolen a few years.


Another thing is people that calve twice a year. If a cow comes up open for fall breeding, they just kick her into spring breeding. Then they stand there and brag they end up with 99%. We just sold our cull steers and heifers and they were very uniform, got top dollar for them.

Just like when you go to a bull sale and a consigner has a pen of bulls and they are all different shapes and sizes, not much uniformity in their herd. Makes you wonder if you buy one what its offspring will look like?