Preg checking - elapsed time?

[bullred]

How long after conception can an average (if there is such a thing) vet determine, with a fair amount of certainty, if a cow is bred via palpation? Also, for those of you that run a limited breeding season, palpate, and cull open cows, when do you normally preg check the cows?

CJ

 

[dun]

Mosy good vets can tell at 45 days, some may need to be 60 days before they can tell. Bare in mind that the number 1 complaint I hear about vets is that they aren;t 100% acurate in detecting bred vs open cows.
We breed in late may through june and preg check when we wean the calves in late august or early spetember.

dun

 

[cypressfarms]

We work our cows twice per year, spring and fall.

During the fall working we have the vet out to preg. check, and then we cull the open cows. That way you don't have to carry an open cow through the winter.

Maybe our vet is better than average...We've not had one "false negative", but by the fall the calf inside the cow is much larger than at 45 to 70 days. Our #1 complaint is that his estimated breeding (She's six months, etc.) can be off by a couple of months.

 

[Brandonm2]

We work our cows twice per year, spring and fall.

During the fall working we have the vet out to preg. check, and then we cull the open cows. That way you don't have to carry an open cow through the winter.

Maybe our vet is better than average...We've not had one "false negative", but by the fall the calf inside the cow is much larger than at 45 to 70 days. Our #1 complaint is that his estimated breeding (She's six months, etc.) can be off by a couple of months.

IF you send the opens to the stockyard how do you KNOW that you have never had a false negative? At our yard you pay to have them preg checked and I wouldn't pay to check a cow a vet just checked negative. Granted you probably have NEVER had and should never have had a false negative; but I don't know how you would know that without preg checking her again 30 days later.

 

[cypressfarms]

Brandonm2,

Never say never right?

Maybe I should explain.

We calf in the spring; well some people call it winter still. Jan-Feb. and some Marchers. If by the fall a cow is not pregnant, she goes to the sale. My dad, who manages one of the herds, believes in keeping the bull on em year yound. If one of the cows comes up pregnant, but only a few months, we cull them.

We always preg check cows at the auction, because there is a possibility that a cow could have been very light bred (maybe a couple of weeks) when she was checked. We normally work in September, and sell in October. The cost to preg check the cows at the stockyard are small, and when one does come up pregnant (however far along), she's worth more than the cost of many preg checks.

Some would argue that you shouldn't preg check at the stock yard, because the result will be announced, and you may get more if sometimes knows that a cow was exposed. I would prefer to stay as honest as possible, whether it costs me a few dollars or not.

 

[Brandonm2]

At our barn if you pay for a preg check and the cow comes up open she runs through early in the sale with the other cows in the preg check pens but she has a big red "O" painted on her side. I would much rather my open cows run through with all the pens of by the pound cows. I don't think it is dishonest at all; because if you are selling her by the pound you are telling the barn that you THINK she is probably open or at least should be done with her productive career. IF somebody buys her to take to the house that is his risk. While the vet may have missed a short bred cow she is still going to only be first trimester and at least here a 1 or a 2 months bred isn't worth any more than an open (unless she also has a calf at side..then she does REALLY well).

 

[cypressfarms]

good point brandonm2.

I've always said that the day I quit learning, I need to be dead. I always try to keep an open mind. Even with tape. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Our auction does paint similar to yours. Maybe we could rethink our plan. But for the herd that my dad manages, it will stay the same. I don't want to offend him. He's not gonna do it for very much longer, and it isn't worth the fight.

For all of the herds under my mgt. The bulls only stay with the cows 90 days, and if their open in Sept., then they grow wheels.

 

[bullred]

First, thanks to all for the responses. Cypress, the program I have in mind sounds very similar to what you are doing with the limited breeding season. This is what I'm planning on doing. Please…comments from anyone are welcome:

Current situation is 25 bred (well 24 are bred, one had a calf last week) F1 tigerstripes. All should be calved out by Feb. Planning on working all cows and calves around 1-Mar-06. All the calves will get parasite control (Dectomax injection), 4-way respiratory shot (Bovi-Shield 4), and 7-way (One Shot Ultra 7). I will not castrate any bull calves from this year's crop (more on that later). I'll also vaccinate all cows for Vibro/Lepto (PregGuard 9), clostridial disease (UltraChoice 8), and worm with Dectomax injection.

20-Mar-06 I'll turn the bull in with them for 63 days.

Mid-September I'll gather all the cows and calves again. At this time the "shortest" bred cow should be at least 4 months along, so I'll pregnancy check and cull any open cows. Parasite control (probably a pour on this time) all bred cows. Cut out all the calves and immediately ship them to the sale barn with any open cows.

As I don't know anything about the bulls that bred these cows (I bought them all bred), and I also want to get some revenue coming in a little quicker. I'm just going to ship the current calves at weaning. The following year will be a little different because in the fall I may separate the calves and precondition them for 45 days along the lines of the VAC 45 program.

Again, any comments about this plan are greatly appreciated.

CJ

 

[dun]

First, thanks to all for the responses. Cypress, the program I have in mind sounds very similar to what you are doing with the limited breeding season. This is what I'm planning on doing. Please…comments from anyone are welcome:

Current situation is 25 bred (well 24 are bred, one had a calf last week) F1 tigerstripes. All should be calved out by Feb. Planning on working all cows and calves around 1-Mar-06. All the calves will get parasite control (Dectomax injection), 4-way respiratory shot (Bovi-Shield 4), and 7-way (One Shot Ultra 7). I will not castrate any bull calves from this year's crop (more on that later). I'll also vaccinate all cows for Vibro/Lepto (PregGuard 9), clostridial disease (UltraChoice 8), and worm with Dectomax injection.

20-Mar-06 I'll turn the bull in with them for 63 days.

Mid-September I'll gather all the cows and calves again. At this time the "shortest" bred cow should be at least 4 months along, so I'll pregnancy check and cull any open cows. Parasite control (probably a pour on this time) all bred cows. Cut out all the calves and immediately ship them to the sale barn with any open cows.

As I don't know anything about the bulls that bred these cows (I bought them all bred), and I also want to get some revenue coming in a little quicker. I'm just going to ship the current calves at weaning. The following year will be a little different because in the fall I may separate the calves and precondition them for 45 days along the lines of the VAC 45 program.

Again, any comments about this plan are greatly appreciated.

CJ

Your health program pretty much parallels what we do. In the psring we give a full vaccination shedule with worming, in the fall we give vibrio/lepto, worm and pour for grubs.The calves are precondition for 30-45 days then shipped to the backgrounder and comingled with the other producers calves.
We start breeding in mid may and finish around the end of june. Something that you might consider is setting up your facilitys so that the calves had to go through your catchpen/working facilitys to get their grain. Since we AI everything it makes the retained heifers so much easier to work when the time comes because their accustomed to going through the alley and chute that they
re much less nervous and excited when we work them in the spring and when we breed them. We've been doing it that way for the past 4-5 years and you can sure tell the difference in the ones that were trained that way vs the ones we've brought in from outside that weren't.
Just a thought

dun

 

[C HOLLAND]

Dun wrote
(Something that you might consider is setting up your facilitys so that the calves had to go through your catchpen/working facilitys to get their grain. Since we AI everything it makes the retained heifers so much easier to work when the time comes because their accustomed to going through the alley and chute that they
re much less nervous and excited when we work them in the spring and when we breed them.)

Dun, I am getting my catch pen/AI chute ready now for breeding in late Dec or Early Jan. This sounds like a great way to get them in the alley and the chute. I will bring them to the pen in a couple of weeks and make them go through the alley/chute to get to the grain. They are so spoiled with the soy bean pellets I feed them, they will come running every moring when I drive up to feed them, I only give them about a 1/2 lb each 2 times a day, just enough to make them come to the pen.

This forum is a great place to get help and sometimes you dont have to ask, just read the post and things like this come up from people that know what they are doing.

THANKS DUN

 

[dun]

Dun, I am getting my catch pen/AI chute ready now for breeding in late Dec or Early Jan. This sounds like a great way to get them in the alley and the chute. I will bring them to the pen in a couple of weeks and make them go through the alley/chute to get to the grain. They are so spoiled with the soy bean pellets I feed them, they will come running every moring when I drive up to feed them, I only give them about a 1/2 lb each 2 times a day, just enough to make them come to the pen.

The biggest problem that doing this has caused is tryingto sort the right cow/heifer up the alley. Whne they see the gate open they figure they're gonna get some goodies and head up the alleyway.

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Current situation is 25 bred (well 24 are bred, one had a calf last week) F1 tigerstripes. All should be calved out by Feb. Planning on working all cows and calves around 1-Mar-06. All the calves will get parasite control (Dectomax injection), 4-way respiratory shot (Bovi-Shield 4), and 7-way (One Shot Ultra 7). I will not castrate any bull calves from this year's crop (more on that later). I'll also vaccinate all cows for Vibro/Lepto (PregGuard 9), clostridial disease (UltraChoice , and worm with Dectomax injection.

20-Mar-06 I'll turn the bull in with them for 63 days.

Good program. Few comments. First, you are vaccinating everything 3 weeks prior to breeding, so you can use MLV on the calves because the cows are open. PregGuard 9 is a MLV which covers IBR PI3 BRSV BVD and Lepto 5, you need PregGuard10 to cover Vibrio and it is recommended that you give a Vib-Lepto and a BRSV booster shot 3-4 weeks later - only on the first year, next year they don't need a booster. You could give the booster at breeding time.
I see you plan on moving the cows back to Jan 1 for calving. Next year, this routine won't be ideal because the calves will be too young for vaccines 3 weeks prior to breeding (usually recommended that they should be over 3 months of age).
We use MLV on both cows & calves, but we have to do two spring work ups- one for the cows prior to calving & later for the calves after the last calf is 3 months old (then the calves again for boosters).
The calves will need booster shots (at least for the BRSV in the BS4 and the 7-way in the OneShot Ultra Choice. OneShot UC is a vaccine for Pasturella (OneShot - does not need booster) and the Ultra Choice is a 7-way clostridial which needs booster shots - 4-6 weeks later.
The better job you do, the more complicated it gets. If you do not booster the shots recommended, you might as well not give it (according the pharmaceuticals that make the products). Once an animal has received the boosters, than they only need yearly booster - at normal workup time.
If you give the vaccines prior to 3 months, the calves immunities that they have gotton from the cows colostrum interveres with them getting any immunites from the shots. These instructions should be easily found on the instructions with each vaccine.
We revaccinate & worm all our calves prior to weaning with BS5L5 so that their immune system is top-notch prior to the stress of weaning.

 

[sidney411]

If your cattle have access to any standing water i.e. tank, pond, or ground water i.e. stream or creek you may want to in the fall - mid to late November - make sure you de-fluke your cattle. I think that Ivomec-Plus and Valbazon are the only wormers that are also flukeicides. You can buy a seperate flukicide but it is more expensive per dose them the Ivomec-Plus or Valbazon. I checked with my vet and he said that we are deffinately at risk for liver flukes in Texas and need to treat our cattle to decrease infestation.

 

[bullred]

Thanks for info Jeanne. This plan is one that I worked out in theory, but I am still planning on consulting a vet. How to handle the boosters was one of my questions. My idea of working the whole heard only twice a year is not looking too good right now.

CJ

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yeah, the more I learn, the more times we are supposed to run them thru the chute.
Now, latest research says you are not supposed to give more than 2 gram negative vaccines at one time.
Gram negs are Lepto, Pasturella, Homopholis Somnus (which we give to all our calves, and Lepto & H.Som need boosters.
So we have to run our heifer calves thru chute 3 times. So when I have the vet out for Bruc vaccinations, we give them BS5L5 (that takes care of the first Lepto).
Health is getting more & more complicated if you want to stay in line with recommendations - or to qualify for different programs with your calves, like bull test or feedlot.