I did. The bulls usually come here in the spring when there is lots of pasture so they are getting plenty to eat. They don't seem to miss it.3waycross":200bzfj5 said:Banjo":200bzfj5 said:I've had some of same thoughts. If I'm not mistaken, Pharo has a cooperator herd in TN,OH,and VA,...close to me relatively speaking. As far as i know i can't buy directly off of one of them. They gotta go all the way to CO. bought thru the auction and then back. The cooperators are probably bound to a lot of legally binding contracts prohibiting any pre-auction selling, but that;s just a guess, I don't know.AllForage":200bzfj5 said:From my understanding the Pharo program is not much different than any standard bull producing operation. It is the selection of OUTLIERS from a forage only based program. They utilize epds, AI to their version of hot bulls, and outcross outcross outcross. Personally if I was interested I would only purchase from a cooperator that is in my climate. Then you might be able to have a reasonable expectation of results eventhough no real prepotency has been built in the herds. I can think of off hand a half a dozen other outfits I would buy from first for grass fed honestly or low input.
Why is Pharo always associated with grass fed when he promotes low input ranching?
Is there a point where animals are too small to be profitable in grass fed? Yes
Is there a point where animals are too large to work in grass fed? Yes
Why do those who have never produced grass fed, don't have enough land or rainfall, and have never eaten any always yell the loudest?
Does Allan Nation talk out of school sometimes and have an agenda? Yes, just look at the shameless promotion of Devons at his publication, but he still has better info for profitable production than any establishment publication.
I'm not opposed to buying a bull that's had some grain.....there just aren't any around here that are grass developed only that I'm aware of. However, I have two nice bulls that came from local conventional producers that I know feeds corn, but they seem to have adapted quite well to my operation.
Did you let them down off feed after test or did the producer.
Pharo Bulls
- Thread starter bcarty
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Till-Hill
Well-known member
I have limited AI experience with PCC bulls. One Angus bull Moderator. Very calving ease. Calves were born at an "organic" place and guy never had culled for anything. Pretty much if it was alive it stayed. Used some "conventional" bulls also and none of the calves grew...........
Have an Elijah (TA x AN) heifer out of a Hereford x Holstein recip. Again calving ease but did have higgest weight per day of age as a fall calf. See how she turns out.
Had a Buckaroo (TA x HH x AN) heifer x SM/HP/AN heifer. Smallest by far frame size calf in group. Got fat on on Holstein heifer ration and never bred.....but neither did any of my fall '11 heifers this year......
Had an Elijah heifer this spring 62 lb bw 6 days early out of another Angus x Holstein recip that is growing now anyway......
Used Buckaroo and Paleface (same as Buckaroo) on some commercial cows a guy wanted baldies and some calving ease with some easy doing as he liked fat cows year round and wanted to keep the heifers and sell steers at weaning. Thought perfect place to use them. He sold heifers and fed steers out and you could really see the PCC sired calves right away. First born calves of course being AI'ed and I'd say they were grain finished 10 months 8-900 lbs. Rest the group were 6" taller and had weighed same but had 4-6 months to be done. He never complained but which ones made more $? I can't answer that.
Used Moderator Paleface and Elijah both on a group of Red Angus sired commercial heifers last year. They feed just hay all year round. 15 head on 5 acre of dirt! Trying to make the herd a little more fleshy. It's an experiment anyway. Ultrasound said they were all bull calves tho. So we will be able to tell difference at finish on these calves to as steers will be used for 4-H projects.
I think they have their place but I'm allready seeing what I thought were my huge cows (because we have some what I'd say was small) is that they really are not that big. 13 yr old PB Angus cow who I thought was a monster we culled last month weighed only 1405......Couldn't tell you frame size for sure but I'd say 5.5-6? Do I need them smaller? My small cows I would say weigh 250-400 less than that HUGE cow! That 1405 cow weaned off with creep born 8-27-12 weaned 3-20-13 shots 3-21 and weighed 3-22 @ 208 days old came off scale at 760.......wish she would have stayed pregnant. 54% of her Body weight weaned in fall I can live with that.
So in closing they are not the right kind of bulls for me in NE Iowa where I have to feed hay in winter. Only have access to 10 acre of stalks where cows winter because of water. I can't run cows on stockpiled grass etc...I'd rather run more cows if I could do that and if I did deer would eat it all anyway.
I have seen more of them Scottish origin bulls Genex, LT Ranch, SInclair, Boyd, etc... brought in few years ago. How long did they last in them operations? Not long. Performance was not there for the mainstay commercial guy....Saw a couple Jipsey Earl bulls out of high performance Angus cows that the registered breeders cut that I thought maybe would work better than the "pure" Scottish deal...
I will keep using PCC genetics on hard doing herds/dairy influenced stock cows....... The outcome I have not come to yet but have not found anything better to use either. Got the cow might as well use her and try to make her better.
But on my cows that live off grass/hay/mineral now and can wean 50% body weight off that I think I'm on the right track......I'm no Kit Pharo but cow don't take calf=culled. Don't breed back in the 35-60 day calving season we keep every year=culled (cows calving 3 weeks early and late hurt!) Problem cows, light weaning, etc get CULLED too. I do feed mineral year round and hay and calve wrong time of year for PCC herd quitter mentality but for my market I need March and April calves to sell to make a living.
Sorry for the rambling. Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.
There is a place for every kind of bull in the vast climates of North America. To each is their own!
Have an Elijah (TA x AN) heifer out of a Hereford x Holstein recip. Again calving ease but did have higgest weight per day of age as a fall calf. See how she turns out.
Had a Buckaroo (TA x HH x AN) heifer x SM/HP/AN heifer. Smallest by far frame size calf in group. Got fat on on Holstein heifer ration and never bred.....but neither did any of my fall '11 heifers this year......
Had an Elijah heifer this spring 62 lb bw 6 days early out of another Angus x Holstein recip that is growing now anyway......
Used Buckaroo and Paleface (same as Buckaroo) on some commercial cows a guy wanted baldies and some calving ease with some easy doing as he liked fat cows year round and wanted to keep the heifers and sell steers at weaning. Thought perfect place to use them. He sold heifers and fed steers out and you could really see the PCC sired calves right away. First born calves of course being AI'ed and I'd say they were grain finished 10 months 8-900 lbs. Rest the group were 6" taller and had weighed same but had 4-6 months to be done. He never complained but which ones made more $? I can't answer that.
Used Moderator Paleface and Elijah both on a group of Red Angus sired commercial heifers last year. They feed just hay all year round. 15 head on 5 acre of dirt! Trying to make the herd a little more fleshy. It's an experiment anyway. Ultrasound said they were all bull calves tho. So we will be able to tell difference at finish on these calves to as steers will be used for 4-H projects.
I think they have their place but I'm allready seeing what I thought were my huge cows (because we have some what I'd say was small) is that they really are not that big. 13 yr old PB Angus cow who I thought was a monster we culled last month weighed only 1405......Couldn't tell you frame size for sure but I'd say 5.5-6? Do I need them smaller? My small cows I would say weigh 250-400 less than that HUGE cow! That 1405 cow weaned off with creep born 8-27-12 weaned 3-20-13 shots 3-21 and weighed 3-22 @ 208 days old came off scale at 760.......wish she would have stayed pregnant. 54% of her Body weight weaned in fall I can live with that.
So in closing they are not the right kind of bulls for me in NE Iowa where I have to feed hay in winter. Only have access to 10 acre of stalks where cows winter because of water. I can't run cows on stockpiled grass etc...I'd rather run more cows if I could do that and if I did deer would eat it all anyway.
I have seen more of them Scottish origin bulls Genex, LT Ranch, SInclair, Boyd, etc... brought in few years ago. How long did they last in them operations? Not long. Performance was not there for the mainstay commercial guy....Saw a couple Jipsey Earl bulls out of high performance Angus cows that the registered breeders cut that I thought maybe would work better than the "pure" Scottish deal...
I will keep using PCC genetics on hard doing herds/dairy influenced stock cows....... The outcome I have not come to yet but have not found anything better to use either. Got the cow might as well use her and try to make her better.
But on my cows that live off grass/hay/mineral now and can wean 50% body weight off that I think I'm on the right track......I'm no Kit Pharo but cow don't take calf=culled. Don't breed back in the 35-60 day calving season we keep every year=culled (cows calving 3 weeks early and late hurt!) Problem cows, light weaning, etc get CULLED too. I do feed mineral year round and hay and calve wrong time of year for PCC herd quitter mentality but for my market I need March and April calves to sell to make a living.
Sorry for the rambling. Just thought I'd share my 2 cents.
There is a place for every kind of bull in the vast climates of North America. To each is their own!
Jake
Well-known member
AllForage":3jvacnd3 said:
Sounds like I need to get you to send me a couple steaks. I would offer a swap but the 3 year old heifer we fed last isn't exactly the best steak in the world.
Ok so I went with my neighbor (PCC Co-Op Producer) and got to look at some of their herd sire bulls, then some fall born calves with their mommas, then bred heifers, and finally some first calf heifer pairs. Honestly the adult bulls were small, but they were not short coupled, and they were for sure THICK. They would be hard to look at standing next to a main stream adult bull. When we went to look at some of the fall calves at their mommas sides I was impressed, not just with the calves, but with the mommas. I can tell you that the calves I looked at were very very thick, and these were the bull calves destined for next years spring sale. They were not as tall as my traditional calves, but they were really good calves. The heifer mates were just as good. The producers farm that I was on does a very good job of pasture rotation and these cows were in excellent shape. There were some frame 4 cows there weighing 1200 for sure, and they have had no hay and no grain. I can also vouch for this guys integrity and I can assure you I wasnt just shown the good looking cows. I was shown everything.
The first calf heifer pairs were just as impressive as the cows. These were spring calvers with calves at side that are destined for the sale as well. They had 1 month old babies at sides and were still in BCS 6. Thats so tough to do with heifers even with grain. These had had no grain and they were 24 months old. They also had no hay. They were not small in any way. Not short on stature and not short coupled.
The pregnant heifers were the most impressive part of the whole thing. They were daughters of pharo breeding on both sides and they were bred back to pharo bulls. Many were bred back to Beral of Wye. They were long and very fleshy. Again no hay and no grain at all, just good mineral and pasture. It was not irrigated pasture or some sort of cereal grain for grazing. It was actually wild grass native to the rocky clay soil here in central Missouri.
I have decided to use these bulls on a limited number of cows. As with anything just completely dropping my old bulls and using PCC bulls on all my cows will not work, but I need some of these momma cows in my herd and eventually a bunch of them. In the future I will use a terminal cross bull on those heifers that I keep, but for now I am convinced that these animals can and will get it done on grass. I will add that it does take good pasture rotation to make the low input thing work. If you would rather move cattle than feed hay go look at some PCC stock for yourself. It will be an eye opening experience. Im not saying that we should all drop the cows we have, but I will say there is something to this grass based genetics trend.
The first calf heifer pairs were just as impressive as the cows. These were spring calvers with calves at side that are destined for the sale as well. They had 1 month old babies at sides and were still in BCS 6. Thats so tough to do with heifers even with grain. These had had no grain and they were 24 months old. They also had no hay. They were not small in any way. Not short on stature and not short coupled.
The pregnant heifers were the most impressive part of the whole thing. They were daughters of pharo breeding on both sides and they were bred back to pharo bulls. Many were bred back to Beral of Wye. They were long and very fleshy. Again no hay and no grain at all, just good mineral and pasture. It was not irrigated pasture or some sort of cereal grain for grazing. It was actually wild grass native to the rocky clay soil here in central Missouri.
I have decided to use these bulls on a limited number of cows. As with anything just completely dropping my old bulls and using PCC bulls on all my cows will not work, but I need some of these momma cows in my herd and eventually a bunch of them. In the future I will use a terminal cross bull on those heifers that I keep, but for now I am convinced that these animals can and will get it done on grass. I will add that it does take good pasture rotation to make the low input thing work. If you would rather move cattle than feed hay go look at some PCC stock for yourself. It will be an eye opening experience. Im not saying that we should all drop the cows we have, but I will say there is something to this grass based genetics trend.
