Only 64 days left till he's weaned.

[CattleMan1920]

Science doesn't lie.

Dr. Bonsma was a scientist. A renown scientist. He did not make errors about tectonic plates in case BR has another anti-science example to school us on and to use as fluff.

Angus has more than 1 million blood samples, they are constantly being analyzed by computers with sophisticated algorithms, not in a zillion years could you or I be able to compute the combinations.

I'm sure he understood the animal A to Z, but he would never have been able to map the genome and use genomic enhanced EPD's to create a better animal. What once took 15 years can be done in 2 with AI and ET.

If so (and we have had this technology for more than 2 years now) why is the AAA having to change indices to move breeders away from creating terminal and non-fertile cattle right now? A little Bonsma look would have culled the culprits years ago without the current rush to repair. That was easy.

Again, eyeballing a cow and saying "that cow is fertile" is an amazing talent, I have to agree. Or in regards to a bull, saying "just by looking at this bull, I know he will transmit, this or that"

I'm not doubting that he had talent, that is obvious.

The only way I would have been convinced is if he had been able to look at a heifer for example, and with a high degree of accuracy, describe that heifer's traits without looking at her EPD profile and ending up within a very close margin of what the actual genomic-enhanced EPD's show.

Of course that would be like someone looking at a car engine and guessing the horsepower rating. They might know right off hand how many cylinders, but everything inside could still be a mystery.

I love the writings of Charles Darwin, but I don't think he understood science as it is presented today. Maybe I am wrong.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

If you can't look at bull or a heifer and see some of the traits you are looking for you might should learn how.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you can't look at bull or a heifer and see some of the traits you are looking for you might should learn how.

I was told once, when bass fishing, it's all about how you hold your mouth.

I tried in vain to hold it right, but it didn't work.

Better bait did work however.

 

[76 Bar]

If so (and we have had this technology for more than 2 years now) why is the AAA having to change indices to move breeders away from creating terminal and non-fertile cattle right now? A little Bonsma look would have culled the culprits years ago without the current rush to repair. That was easy.

From the horse's mouth:
http://www.angus.org/pub/LetterFromThePresident20190318.pdf

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Thousands of cattle are bought by commercial producers year in year out with out epds and dna. EPD's and dna still can't predict phenotype or structure. If they don't have the phenotype and structure the best epds and dna are worthless.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Thousands of cattle are bought by commercial producers year in year out with out epds and dna. EPD's and dna still can't predict phenotype or structure. If they don't have the phenotype and structure the best epds and dna are worthless.

Would you buy a bull that has very good phenotype but ranks in the bottom 95% for HP, CEM, DMI, $EN and CED?

Or better yet, what if you bought a bull that looked very appealing to you, tested him and found out he was WAY below breed average. Would you be ok with that?

 

[Nesikep]

Lemme ask you this.. Unless you're one of the big names, and get your sires into ABS, SS, or something where they have 100's of offspring, how do you increase the ACCURACY of your EPD's? If your bulls are typically going to commercial cattlemen where no one reports or registers anything, you're screwed... the bulls dam is never going to get more accurate, her EPD's are going to be a crapshoot at best, and it'll never improve.. you'll forever be stuck sucking hind tit.. and it's not necessarily because your animals are lesser animals.
That's why the commercial cattleman looks at phenotype and a few basic EPD's, as well as the sire and dam. When their steers go through the sale barn, the buyers don't see EPD's, they see phenotype. They see calves with the build they like and they pay.

 

[dbirdsong]

I'm still not buying the DNA results. They still don't have them figured out yet. I had every AI calf GS tested this year. If I had you come out and sort through them I am fairly certain you would pick the calves with the worst DNA test results and epds and say to steer the calves with the best.

 

[Ebenezer]

Had a chance to go to a field day a few years ago in MO. The owners had penned some cattle for the visitors like me. I met a man who was far along in Bonsma and I asked him to go over the the corner post of the fence dividing the cows and the exposed heifers to tell me what he could. We discussed the cows a bit which were farther away and then he looked over at the heifers and said, "He did not have a good breed up on these heifers and seems only about 2/3 are bred" (about 60 head). So he proceeded to tell me which were open and which were bred by visual signs as they moved about. I was amazed and a little skeptical (without DNA and EPDs at hand ). I never told the owner but followed up with calls and mentioned the heifers after he had done preg checking. He was upset in that he had allowed them to breed in a mob as multisire with 3 or 4 bulls and about a third of them were open and culled. I mentioned the story of the field day and he said, "Why in the h didn't you tell me earlier?"

Such has helped me.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Lemme ask you this.. Unless you're one of the big names, and get your sires into ABS, SS, or something where they have 100's of offspring, how do you increase the ACCURACY of your EPD's? If your bulls are typically going to commercial cattlemen where no one reports or registers anything, you're screwed... the bulls dam is never going to get more accurate, her EPD's are going to be a crapshoot at best, and it'll never improve.. you'll forever be stuck sucking hind tit.. and it's not necessarily because your animals are lesser animals.
That's why the commercial cattleman looks at phenotype and a few basic EPD's, as well as the sire and dam. When their steers go through the sale barn, the buyers don't see EPD's, they see phenotype. They see calves with the build they like and they pay.

Then I'm all good.

The phenotype is getting better out here with each generation, but so are the EPD's.

 

[fhug]

I have seen cows in several breeds that had great EPD's that had crappy udders and/or bad feet. But since they had those great "numbers", their owners made them into donor cows.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have seen cows in several breeds that had great EPD's that had crappy udders and/or bad feet. But since they had those great "numbers", their owners made them into donor cows.

Where is the common sense? I would not use a dud as a bull or donor, no matter what the EPD's say. I prefer to have the whole package. EPDs and phenotype.

But you can't just go on phenotype alone.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I have seen cows in several breeds that had great EPD's that had crappy udders and/or bad feet. But since they had those great "numbers", their owners made them into donor cows.

Where is the common sense? I would not use a dud as a bull or donor, no matter what the EPD's say. I prefer to have the whole package. EPDs and phenotype.

But you can't just go on phenotype alone.

So I guess sav America is going to be a no go then, since the bull can't walk and is straight in the hip?

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have seen cows in several breeds that had great EPD's that had crappy udders and/or bad feet. But since they had those great "numbers", their owners made them into donor cows.

Where is the common sense? I would not use a dud as a bull or donor, no matter what the EPD's say. I prefer to have the whole package. EPDs and phenotype.

But you can't just go on phenotype alone.

So I guess sav America is going to be a no go then, since the bull can't walk and is straight in the hip?

Hold up, let me take a wild guess.

You were going to outbid Herbster, but then realized America didn't have what it took to meet your stringent requirements.

This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Lrj505]

Clearly, I am no match for your level of ignorance, Branded but calling Bonsma a dinosaur is truly an indicator of your lack of basics of cattle breeding. Dr. Jan Bonsma is still recognized world wide for his work with animals. His writings bring enormous dollars IF you can get your hands on them. He taught how to visually recognize a sub-fertile animal without EPD's. Did you know Bonsma could look at a cow and tell you how old she was, how many calves she'd had and if she'd lost a calf at any point in her life? He developed a breed of heat tolerant, disease resistant cattle called the Bonsmara which is the most popular breed in South Africa today.
Honors and awards bestowed on Dr. Bonsma:
Texas A&M University- Distinguished Guest Professor (1964-65) the first non-American so honoured. Part of the citation reads:
Never before has one man given so much to so many in the practice of beef improvement. Your educated but pragmatic approach to teaching your fellowman how to improve his efficiency of beef production will indeed leave its mark on the livestock industry for generations to come.
American Beef Booster of the Year Award for exceptional contribution to the American livestock industry, 1965.
American Hereford Association- Honour Award, 1965
Progressive Farmer Magazine- Special Honour Award-America, 1966. (Given by balloting of the 4.5 million readers, indicating whose writings has contributed most to better agriculture in America.)
Santa Certrudis Breeders International- Honour Award, 1966
Texas Brahman Association- Honour Award, 1966
California Livestock Symposium -Honour Plaque 1970
Nebraska Charolais Breeder's Association- Honour Award, 1972
Bonsmara Breeders Association - bronze documentary statuette of the Bonsmara foundation sire "Edelheer" sculpted by Jo Roos, 1973
Omaha Chamber of Commerce - OCC Brand of Excellence, 1973
Colombian Criollo Cattle Breeder's Society - Criollo Statuette, 1974
Colombian Zebu Society - Zebu Statuette, 1974
Livestock Association of Zebu Breeders of Mexico- Mexican Honour Diploma, 1974
Livestock Bank of Colombia - Appreciation for his admirable collaboration in the development of the Colombian Livestock
Industry", 1974

South African Society of Animal Production- Elected Honourary President, 1974
Agriservices Foundation-California -Special Honour Award, 1975
Association of Breeders of Registered Cattle of Guatemala" Special Honour Award, 1975
Brown Swiss Cattle Society of South Africa" Honourary Life Member, 1975

South African Poultry Society - Shield and Gold Medal, 1953 â€" held the world record for ten years at official egg laying competitions from 1952-53 thru 1962-63.
South African Biological Society -Senior Captain Scott Medal (their highest award), 1957
South African Academy of Science and Art - Medal of Honour for Natural Science Achievement, 1966
South African Society of Animal Production - Gold Medal (their highest award), 1968
Livestock & Meat Industry, Dairy & Poultry & Allied trades - Agriculturist of the Year Award, 1974.
Claude Harris Leon Foundation - Award of Merit for Outstanding Fundamental Research Contribution, 1982.
Named one of the Ten Outstanding Pretorians, 1982

You miss what I'm saying. I never dismissed his accomplishments. They are exceptional to say the least.

What I'm saying however is this. Take the Moo Monitor by Dairymaster. Ask anyone that owns one. I can spot a sick cow in a heartbeat, I know when one has gone into heat, down to the minute it happens. Can any human beat that technology? Maybe, but it would be hard. Could he have told me about a cow's rumination, resting, grazing activity, etc, with exact detail? Probably not.

As for the genome mapping. How could he even remotely compete by just looking at a cow versus Angus GS or HD50K. You are completely dismissing some serious science.

Man is fallible. Science doesn't lie.

Angus has more than 1 million blood samples, they are constantly being analyzed by computers with sophisticated algorithms, not in a zillion years could you or I be able to compute the combinations.

I'm sure he understood the animal A to Z, but he would never have been able to map the genome and use genomic enhanced EPD's to create a better animal. What once took 15 years can be done in 2 with AI and ET.

Science doesn't lie , but scientist do.

 

[Lrj505]

Clearly, I am no match for your level of ignorance, Branded but calling Bonsma a dinosaur is truly an indicator of your lack of basics of cattle breeding. Dr. Jan Bonsma is still recognized world wide for his work with animals. His writings bring enormous dollars IF you can get your hands on them. He taught how to visually recognize a sub-fertile animal without EPD's. Did you know Bonsma could look at a cow and tell you how old she was, how many calves she'd had and if she'd lost a calf at any point in her life? He developed a breed of heat tolerant, disease resistant cattle called the Bonsmara which is the most popular breed in South Africa today.
Honors and awards bestowed on Dr. Bonsma:
Texas A&M University- Distinguished Guest Professor (1964-65) the first non-American so honoured. Part of the citation reads:
Never before has one man given so much to so many in the practice of beef improvement. Your educated but pragmatic approach to teaching your fellowman how to improve his efficiency of beef production will indeed leave its mark on the livestock industry for generations to come.
American Beef Booster of the Year Award for exceptional contribution to the American livestock industry, 1965.
American Hereford Association- Honour Award, 1965
Progressive Farmer Magazine- Special Honour Award-America, 1966. (Given by balloting of the 4.5 million readers, indicating whose writings has contributed most to better agriculture in America.)
Santa Certrudis Breeders International- Honour Award, 1966
Texas Brahman Association- Honour Award, 1966
California Livestock Symposium -Honour Plaque 1970
Nebraska Charolais Breeder's Association- Honour Award, 1972
Bonsmara Breeders Association - bronze documentary statuette of the Bonsmara foundation sire "Edelheer" sculpted by Jo Roos, 1973
Omaha Chamber of Commerce - OCC Brand of Excellence, 1973
Colombian Criollo Cattle Breeder's Society - Criollo Statuette, 1974
Colombian Zebu Society - Zebu Statuette, 1974
Livestock Association of Zebu Breeders of Mexico- Mexican Honour Diploma, 1974
Livestock Bank of Colombia - Appreciation for his admirable collaboration in the development of the Colombian Livestock
Industry", 1974

South African Society of Animal Production- Elected Honourary President, 1974
Agriservices Foundation-California -Special Honour Award, 1975
Association of Breeders of Registered Cattle of Guatemala" Special Honour Award, 1975
Brown Swiss Cattle Society of South Africa" Honourary Life Member, 1975

South African Poultry Society - Shield and Gold Medal, 1953 â€" held the world record for ten years at official egg laying competitions from 1952-53 thru 1962-63.
South African Biological Society -Senior Captain Scott Medal (their highest award), 1957
South African Academy of Science and Art - Medal of Honour for Natural Science Achievement, 1966
South African Society of Animal Production - Gold Medal (their highest award), 1968
Livestock & Meat Industry, Dairy & Poultry & Allied trades - Agriculturist of the Year Award, 1974.
Claude Harris Leon Foundation - Award of Merit for Outstanding Fundamental Research Contribution, 1982.
Named one of the Ten Outstanding Pretorians, 1982

You miss what I'm saying. I never dismissed his accomplishments. They are exceptional to say the least.

What I'm saying however is this. Take the Moo Monitor by Dairymaster. Ask anyone that owns one. I can spot a sick cow in a heartbeat, I know when one has gone into heat, down to the minute it happens. Can any human beat that technology? Maybe, but it would be hard. Could he have told me about a cow's rumination, resting, grazing activity, etc, with exact detail? Probably not.

As for the genome mapping. How could he even remotely compete by just looking at a cow versus Angus GS or HD50K. You are completely dismissing some serious science.

Man is fallible. Science doesn't lie.

Angus has more than 1 million blood samples, they are constantly being analyzed by computers with sophisticated algorithms, not in a zillion years could you or I be able to compute the combinations.

I'm sure he understood the animal A to Z, but he would never have been able to map the genome and use genomic enhanced EPD's to create a better animal. What once took 15 years can be done in 2 with AI and ET.

Science doesn't lie , but scientist do.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Where is the common sense? I would not use a dud as a bull or donor, no matter what the EPD's say. I prefer to have the whole package. EPDs and phenotype.

But you can't just go on phenotype alone.

So I guess sav America is going to be a no go then, since the bull can't walk and is straight in the hip?

Hold up, let me take a wild guess.

You were going to outbid Herbster, but then realized America didn't have what it took to meet your stringent requirements.

This is getting ridiculous.

So you are going to use him?
Didn't realize requiring a bull to be able to walk was a stringent requirement.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Especially in that rugged terrain in Ky.

 

[CreekAngus]

Thousands of cattle are bought by commercial producers year in year out with out epds and dna. EPD's and dna still can't predict phenotype or structure. If they don't have the phenotype and structure the best epds and dna are worthless.

Would you buy a bull that has very good phenotype but ranks in the bottom 95% for HP, CEM, DMI, $EN and CED?

Or better yet, what if you bought a bull that looked very appealing to you, tested him and found out he was WAY below breed average. Would you be ok with that?

I would, because the only one of those epd's that even matter is CED, I think HP might be the worst EPD of all. And ironically Branded you don't mind bottom 5% for CED, you post stuff about SAV International quite a bit.

 

[W.B.]

Thousands of cattle are bought by commercial producers year in year out with out epds and dna. EPD's and dna still can't predict phenotype or structure. If they don't have the phenotype and structure the best epds and dna are worthless.

Would you buy a bull that has very good phenotype but ranks in the bottom 95% for HP, CEM, DMI, $EN and CED?

Or better yet, what if you bought a bull that looked very appealing to you, tested him and found out he was WAY below breed average. Would you be ok with that?

I would, because the only one of those epd's that even matter is CED, I think HP might be the worst EPD of all. And ironically Branded you don't mind bottom 5% for CED, you post stuff about SAV International quite a bit.

How is the HP epd the worst epd of all? The data on my commercial operation suggests that it is being underutilized. The differences of the cattle in say the bottom 10 to 15 percent and the top 25 percent are very real. If you go through epds of some the older bulls that are widely used I think it is spot on. I do realize with genomics added to the equation there will be some inaccuracies but what an awesome tool to use as an indicator. No epd of any unproven yearling bull or heifer will be right all the time. It is just the wAy population genetics work.