OK Folks Pick Her Apart!

[calfbuyer]

So Massey, you're tying to tell me that there is NO black simm or simmX bulls that will get the same growth as a char? If that's what you're saying you are dead wrong my friend. Not only will the calves grow just as good but they will bring more money. Why because they are BLACK. The char bull will work just fine but better on the black cattle because you will get a smoke. The reds will give you a yellow. The smoke will bring a nickel to a dime more (around here anyway). So why not just make em all black?

 

[Simmental7]

The Smokes bring more than the yellows in your area?... and i agree with Calfbuyer.. there are alot of growth sires in the Simmental breed.

 

[cow pollinater]

If you adjust the bulls for across breed epd, the #1 sire for growth in the abs lineup is a simangus. From there it goes something like char, char, sim, angus, char, char, angus...

 

[Massey135]

Unless the animals were talking about have extremely high accuracies, across breed epds are trash. The trait leader for ww in the charolais breed will blow any Angus bulls ACTUALS out of the water.

A simangus x Angus calf is 11/14 black angus. Now how much hybrid vigor do expect from that?

Sounds like an Angus guy I know. Hes always saying "black on black equals stacks on stacks.". His calves always bring highest cwt but what he doesn't realize is his calves are giving up 50-75 lbs on the crossbreds. It might be a wash on the steers but what he doesn't realize is that he'll never attain any maternal heterosis out of his retained females. They're good lookin cows, mostly Express genetics for YEARS. Wish he'd put a big white bull over em and really see what those cows can do.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Unless the animals were talking about have extremely high accuracies, across breed epds are trash. The trait leader for ww in the charolais breed will blow any Angus bulls ACTUALS out of the water.

A simangus x Angus calf is 11/14 black angus. Now how much hybrid vigor do expect from that?

Sounds like an Angus guy I know. Hes always saying "black on black equals stacks on stacks.". His calves always bring highest cwt but what he doesn't realize is his calves are giving up 50-75 lbs on the crossbreds. It might be a wash on the steers but what he doesn't realize is that he'll never attain any maternal heterosis out of his retained females. They're good lookin cows, mostly Express genetics for YEARS. Wish he'd put a big white bull over em and really see what those cows can do.

in the long run, id take the former

 

[Jake]

Unless the animals were talking about have extremely high accuracies, across breed epds are trash. The trait leader for ww in the charolais breed will blow any Angus bulls ACTUALS out of the water.

A simangus x Angus calf is 11/14 black angus. Now how much hybrid vigor do expect from that?

Sounds like an Angus guy I know. Hes always saying "black on black equals stacks on stacks.". His calves always bring highest cwt but what he doesn't realize is his calves are giving up 50-75 lbs on the crossbreds. It might be a wash on the steers but what he doesn't realize is that he'll never attain any maternal heterosis out of his retained females. They're good lookin cows, mostly Express genetics for YEARS. Wish he'd put a big white bull over em and really see what those cows can do.

in the long run, id take the latter...

Just out of pure personal preference if I got the same total $$ out of the calves. I would want the straight bred cattle. Sure I will lose out on some heterosis on the front end and I won't have the crossbred cows to have any maternal heterosis. But LONG term I believe I will be better off because my genetics will be more consistent I will have a much better idea of what I'm going to produce year in and year out. For my investment purposes I would rather have a constant that I can tweek to a direction if needed than have a mixed back of genetics that I am going to have to fight for years to come if I want/need to change something.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Unless the animals were talking about have extremely high accuracies, across breed epds are trash. The trait leader for ww in the charolais breed will blow any Angus bulls ACTUALS out of the water.

A simangus x Angus calf is 11/14 black angus. Now how much hybrid vigor do expect from that?

Sounds like an Angus guy I know. Hes always saying "black on black equals stacks on stacks.". His calves always bring highest cwt but what he doesn't realize is his calves are giving up 50-75 lbs on the crossbreds. It might be a wash on the steers but what he doesn't realize is that he'll never attain any maternal heterosis out of his retained females. They're good lookin cows, mostly Express genetics for YEARS. Wish he'd put a big white bull over em and really see what those cows can do.

in the long run, id take the latter...

Just out of pure personal preference if I got the same total $$ out of the calves. I would want the straight bred cattle. Sure I will lose out on some heterosis on the front end and I won't have the crossbred cows to have any maternal heterosis. But LONG term I believe I will be better off because my genetics will be more consistent I will have a much better idea of what I'm going to produce year in and year out. For my investment purposes I would rather have a constant that I can tweek to a direction if needed than have a mixed back of genetics that I am going to have to fight for years to come if I want/need to change something.

i went back to edit my post.. but you beat me before i could,, i meant the former

 

[Massey135]

Why wouldn't you just at least choose a 2 breed rotational cross system?

 

[Jake]

Why wouldn't you just at least choose a 2 breed rotational cross system?

If I get to my goal of over 500 head of cows I will most likely use a terminal bull on the bottom end cows that I don't want to keep replacements out of. But until then I'm going to use angus bulls on my angus based cows and work at molding our herd into what I need it to be. It's much harder to build a quality herd top to bottom with genetics that are all over the place.

I won't know that I will ever mess with a two breed rotation. The heterosis is diminished after the first generation and therefore your no longer maximizing anything. You just have to constantly be regrouping with your bull battery and management. Not to mention that I will be losing cosistency. In my market place consistency is what will pay. It really doesn't matter if I have 100 pure red steers or 100 pure black steers they are going to bring a premium. (the blacks will bring more so thats what we have) If I can manage to pull in the premium without sacrificing a lot of pounds why not do it? If I have to start chasing heterosis to get the pounds then I am screwing myself on the female end of the equation with the type of management style I want to run.

 

[SSGenetics]

Unless the animals were talking about have extremely high accuracies, across breed epds are trash. The trait leader for ww in the charolais breed will blow any Angus bulls ACTUALS out of the water.

A simangus x Angus calf is 11/14 black angus. Now how much hybrid vigor do expect from that?

Sounds like an Angus guy I know. Hes always saying "black on black equals stacks on stacks.". His calves always bring highest cwt but what he doesn't realize is his calves are giving up 50-75 lbs on the crossbreds. It might be a wash on the steers but what he doesn't realize is that he'll never attain any maternal heterosis out of his retained females. They're good lookin cows, mostly Express genetics for YEARS. Wish he'd put a big white bull over em and really see what those cows can do.

in the long run, id take the latter...

Just out of pure personal preference if I got the same total $$ out of the calves. I would want the straight bred cattle. Sure I will lose out on some heterosis on the front end and I won't have the crossbred cows to have any maternal heterosis. But LONG term I believe I will be better off because my genetics will be more consistent I will have a much better idea of what I'm going to produce year in and year out. For my investment purposes I would rather have a constant that I can tweek to a direction if needed than have a mixed back of genetics that I am going to have to fight for years to come if I want/need to change something.

I’m going to RESPECTFULLY disagree. Your thinking is off when you say "same total $$". You do not have to breed BA to BA to get black hided calves.

A straightbred BA steer will weigh less than a 3 way cross steer. They both have black hide and sell for a premium, but who is losing when the Xbred steer outweighs the BA steer by 75lbs?

Not to mention that you will find very consistent F1 cows, they should be more efficient, easy doing, longer producing, and an overall better calf raiser in the long run... Call me crazy! :tiphat:

 

[SSGenetics]

Why wouldn't you just at least choose a 2 breed rotational cross system?

If I get to my goal of over 500 head of cows I will most likely use a terminal bull on the bottom end cows that I don't want to keep replacements out of. But until then I'm going to use angus bulls on my angus based cows and work at molding our herd into what I need it to be. It's much harder to build a quality herd top to bottom with genetics that are all over the place.

I won't know that I will ever mess with a two breed rotation. The heterosis is diminished after the first generation and therefore your no longer maximizing anything. You just have to constantly be regrouping with your bull battery and management. Not to mention that I will be losing cosistency. In my market place consistency is what will pay. It really doesn't matter if I have 100 pure red steers or 100 pure black steers they are going to bring a premium. (the blacks will bring more so thats what we have) If I can manage to pull in the premium without sacrificing a lot of pounds why not do it? If I have to start chasing heterosis to get the pounds then I am screwing myself on the female end of the equation with the type of management style I want to run.

Didn't know you are retaining replacement females... That makes sense.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Why wouldn't you just at least choose a 2 breed rotational cross system?

If I get to my goal of over 500 head of cows I will most likely use a terminal bull on the bottom end cows that I don't want to keep replacements out of. But until then I'm going to use angus bulls on my angus based cows and work at molding our herd into what I need it to be. It's much harder to build a quality herd top to bottom with genetics that are all over the place.

I won't know that I will ever mess with a two breed rotation. The heterosis is diminished after the first generation and therefore your no longer maximizing anything. You just have to constantly be regrouping with your bull battery and management. Not to mention that I will be losing cosistency. In my market place consistency is what will pay. It really doesn't matter if I have 100 pure red steers or 100 pure black steers they are going to bring a premium. (the blacks will bring more so thats what we have) If I can manage to pull in the premium without sacrificing a lot of pounds why not do it? If I have to start chasing heterosis to get the pounds then I am screwing myself on the female end of the equation with the type of management style I want to run.

it doe's, and im working toward pumping out cookie cutter calves ......

 

[Jake]

I’m going to RESPECTFULLY disagree. Your thinking is off when you say "same total $$". You do not have to breed BA to BA to get black hided calves.

A straightbred BA steer will weigh less than a 3 way cross steer. They both have black hide and sell for a premium, but who is losing when the Xbred steer outweighs the BA steer by 75lbs?

Not to mention that you will find very consistent F1 cows, they should be more efficient, easy doing, longer producing, and an overall better calf raiser in the long run... Call me crazy! :tiphat:

I would say it takes a helluva steer to outweigh a straightbred calf by 75# when coming out of a similar sized cow. I would personally put the number around 25-30#

I realize this is fuzzy math but here's a shot at it anyways.

xbred calf 575# at 1.50 = $862.5
straightbred calf 550# at 1.55= $852.5

That $10 a head to be isn't a big enoguh difference to justify it for our operation. I also feel that I would need a lot more cattle to make a cross breeding system work. Semi load lots of similar type cattle are what the buyers want and I don't feel that is achievable without a considerably larger herd.

There are also other large obstacles, namely family that prevent any sort of sweeping change. Until I pay 100% of the bills I don't get to make 100% of the decisions. You can only manipulate something within the constraints given without stomping on somebody's toes.

 

[Massey135]

I understand and even agree with much of what your saying Jake. At the same time, any Angus bull that you would be wanting to retain females out of will sure give up more than 25lbs to a charolais growth trait leader carcass bull. 75lbs might be too conservative.

 

[Jake]

I understand and even agree with much of what your saying Jake. At the same time, any Angus bull that you would be wanting to retain females out of will sure give up more than 25lbs to a charolais growth trait leader carcass bull. 75lbs might be too conservative.

Not going to disagree with you on a maternal angus bull giving up pounds to a high gaining terminal char bull. But the heifers from thatt terminal bull are completely useless to me.

My part of the country seems to be the great equalizer. We have neighbors who run predominately charolaisX cowherds and their weaning weights are almost exactly the same as ours. Their yearling weights are considerably better and I will give them that advantage.

If your going to sell calves off of the cow in our area you are better off controlling inputs as opposed to maximizing pounds. There is a reason Tim Ohlde created his type of cattle in this area.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

what grass's are in your part of Kansas?

 

[Jake]

what grass's are in your part of Kansas?

Majority big and little blue stem.

 

[Massey135]

Heifers out of a terminal type Angus are completely useless as well.

Ohlde type cows with a growthy terminal char. Best of both worlds.

 

[Jake]

Not disagreeing massey. That would be why we don't use terminal angus bulls. In my environment I still don't believe there is a big enough difference in weaning weights. And I now believe a discussion on profitablilty of backgroudning and feeding and this cow calf discussion is worth having as well. Those genetics can or may be totally different.

Edit: sorry this is on a phone and not real handy.

 

[midtncattle]

What about my heifer??