Not a clue... please help

[mitch2]

I have a few head that are losing weight.
I will give you some facts and see if anyone can put together this puzzle, please...
Pregnant - various stages
Various ages
Tough winter
Bad hay crop last year - too much rain
I had the vet test sample and blood of one of the animals losing weight
Small amount of stomach worms ( I don't worm again until after calving is over)
Protein was on the low side of normal
No parasites (cocciodisis, etc)
One small item to note was a slight increase in white blood cell
No fever
The vet said if he had to lean towards something it would be cancer.
Except that doesn't fit as 25% of the herd isn't going to get cancer at the same time, right?
Vet's recommendation was to give all about 2 pounds per day grain. He thought the animals could just be lower on the food chain and were getting butted around, etc
I say BS...sorry I usually take a Vet's word to heart, but there is enough room for all animals to eat at the same time.
My gut is telling me it is a parasite problem like cocciodisis...but what could that be in "older" over 9 months of age cattle??
Please help
Michele

 

[angus9259]

Coccidiosis is pretty easy to see - can't believe your vet couldn't see it if it was there.

Your background info on your feed quality and winter conditions coincide with the vets recommendations. When you know your hay quality is low and the winter was hard and the vet says there's nothing wrong with there insides and you need to feed them more, why doubt?

 

[dun]

I tend to agree with the vet. What you may feel are more then adequate spots for everyone the cows may see differently

 

[larryshoat]

Michele, I have to vote with the vet too. I think if you read your own post you do a pretty good job of listing things that if added together could cause the problem. Often big problems are just a series of small things added together.

Larry

 

[rockridgecattle]

What is this group of cow's poop like?

I am leaning towards lack of protien and to much undigestable fibre. Basically eating straw. This will cause the cows to loose ground fast, especially if they are in the last trimester when the calves are growing the most and food quality is poor..
Grain or protien tubs or better hay would help. If something is not done soon, the calves born will be weak, failure of passive transfer will occur and more sickness problems because of being weak. The colostrum will be of poor quality and so will the milk. The calves will wean out lighter and breed back will happen later...act now or pay later
...I have this t-shirt.

 

[TexasBred]

Sounds like your cows are feeding worms and starving in the proces...worm ALL...give them some protein and some energy along with a good shot of Vitamin ADE and you'll be surprised how they'll bloom. White blood count usually means they're fighting some infection. Right now they're just "surviving"...Where is ol' "Lucky" the vet when we need him. ;-)

 

[3waycross]

Sounds like your cows are feeding worms and starving in the proces...worm ALL...give them some protein and some energy along with a good shot of Vitamin ADE and you'll be surprised how they'll bloom. White blood count usually means they're fighting some infection. Right now they're just "surviving"...Where is ol' "Lucky" the vet when we need him. ;-)

Ditto that. If you have access to some high protein cake that would be my first suggestion. The ADE sounds like a great place to start also It will jumpstart them a bit.

 

[Lon]

Agree with TB and 3 way worm them cows and put some cake out. tough winter, poorer quality hay (if rained on alot probably closer to straw than hay) trying to grow a calf and have worms. there are alot of things stacked against them girls. if were us i would cake them and pour the hay to them cause once they start loosing condition it is tougt to put back on them right before calving(assuming your spring calving).

 

[Lucky_P]

MItch2,
It sounds like the same ol' thing I see year-in/year-out here in KY & TN.
Heavily pregnant cows, often broken-mouthed or toothless, toughing it through the winter on nothing but really sorry hay - TDN<30, crude protein levels at 3% or less; producer can't understand that they're starving to death with a rumen full of largely indigestible, lignified 'forage', with no energy or protein supplementation.
Lots of these ol' gals just 'run out of gas', with a near-term calf inside 'em or an orphan on the ground and green grass just around the corner.

dun makes a great point about space at the feeders - and whether the cows see enough spaces, and rockridge nailed it:
"I am leaning towards lack of protein and to much undigestable fibre. Basically eating straw. This will cause the cows to lose ground fast, especially if they are in the last trimester when the calves are growing the most and food quality is poor..
Grain or protein tubs or better hay would help. If something is not done soon, the calves born will be weak, failure of passive transfer will occur and more sickness problems because of being weak. The colostrum will be of poor quality and so will the milk. The calves will wean out lighter and breed back will happen later...act now or pay later
...I have this t-shirt."

I have the same T-shirt, and I've seen a lot of other folks wearin' it, too. But, I should have known better.

Having been in the vet practitioner's shoes, and now in a position where I'm not dependent upon 'repeat business', I can tell you that many veterinarians might be reluctant to tell you that you're starving your animals, - sure, they'll try to be more diplomatic about it, but some folks don't take a hint, and some get angry that you'd even insinuate such a thing. I feel fortunate to be able to be in a position to provide a diagnostic report that will allow that veterinarian to broach the subject of malnutrition with the client - kind of like this, "Michele, the diagnostic lab report suggests that we need to re-evaluate the nutritional program for these cows." Much better for that client to be 'mad' at some faceless third party(the pathologist at the lab) than their veterinarian, who's there, boots-on-the-ground, trying to help them.

Sounds to me like you need to look at supplementing your poor quality hay with some additional energy and protein.

 

[djinwa]

This reminds me of a lengthy thread elsewhere of someone from Wisconsin who had deaths which turned out to be poor hay. They ended up getting it analyzed and consulting with a nutritionist and supplementing.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=384217

 

[djinwa]

Just read Lucky P's post and interesting that the person in the thread I listed didn't believe the vet at first because her cattle had plenty of feed in front of them.

 

[KNERSIE]

Get rid of the internal parasites now, use a good injectable product and don't wait till after calving. Feeding a lick is probably a good idea, making sure everybody get their share by limiting the intake with salt is probably the easiest way to go.

 

[TexasBred]

Just read Lucky P's post and interesting that the person in the thread I listed didn't believe the vet at first because her cattle had plenty of feed in front of them.

Amazing how many folks will pay for someone's professional opinion and then refuse to do what they recommend. :!:

 

[upfrombottom]

It helps allot if the Vet was raised on a farm and knows a little of the background of why farmers have to do certain things to survive themselves. Most of the younger Vets, as well as Doctors, are full of spunk and are usually the problem solvers, but along with that they have a touch of arrogance and assume the people they are dealing with are total idiots and will not even try to explain what is going on and how it got started.

I use an older Vet that was raised on a farm and raises cattle himself. He is very knowledgeable and will explain things to you, but sometimes I think he may be losing his spunk and though he may find a cure, it takes several visits to get him concerned enough to do it.

 

[mitch2]

WOW what a consensus!
The test the vet did was about a month ago, and I have been doing exactly what he suggested.
But I feel that perhaps some animals are doing well with the little extra, while others are not.
This is what is making me question his guesstimate.
The hardest hit of the animals are six 1st calf heifers that will not calve until late summer/early fall.
I am concerned about them!
I am going to pull these six from the herd and put them in a separate paddock and hope they will do better.

My concern about worming is sending thru the pregnant momma's in the chute. Our chute is man-made and i don't want one of them to get hurt, it is narrow for such a wide load!

Would a top-dressing wormer be suitable for now, as I could mix it in with their feed?

Thanks everyone!
Michele

 

[KNERSIE]

I'm much less concerned putting heavy breds through the chute than I am putting cows with young calves through. Going through the chute won't hurt a thing.

 

[3waycross]

I'm much less concerned putting heavy breds through the chute than I am putting cows with young calves through. Going through the chute won't hurt a thing.

Could you explain why?

 

[KNERSIE]

Calves getting stepped on.

 

[3waycross]

Calves getting stepped on.

We just sort them off?

 

[CottageFarm]

I'm pretty new to raising animals, so please forgive me if this sounds like a really stupid question. :?
I follow that the wt loss is most likely being caused by insufficient nutrition combined with worms. That all makes sense. What about the elevated white cell count? Would nutritional stress, combined with intestinal worms cause the elevation? Does pregnancy have an effect as well under those stresses?