New herd... what steps to take to reach desired herd?

[FlowerFieldFarm]

Hi - I read here often, post little. I have been stewing over this for 4 months and can't really decide what to do, so here goes. I will try to make this as brief as possible without leaving out any details.

We have been living on my in-laws place for the last 8 years - have about 100 hd of cows here, 10 of which are ours. Very dry range conditions, annual precip about 12" in western NE, almost to WY border. Typical herd here is about 1100-1300 lb cows, varied color/breeds. Bulls not bought at bull sales, probably picked up at salebarn or saved. Cows run on range about 8 months, fed low quality hay other 4. Calves born in April 15-June 15th. Cows usually in about a 4 BCS coming out of winter, but back to a 5.5 when spring grass sets in. I would say they are a steady 5 right now even in this drought. I would say the average weaning weight over last 8 years has been 450-500 in Nov... this year weaning early, I would say most calves weight 300-350 right now. What I would call a very low imput system - and calves that don't sell great, cows that don't have good cull values, and I would honestly be terrified to sell them on the rail with unknown and variable carcass quality. I don't wan't to replicate this system in any way, shape or form, although many people seem to prefer it to have a higher stocking rate...

Fast forward, my husband starting farming for the neighbors down the road early 2011... they decided we were doing a good job and none of their kids/grandkids want to farm, so they are working with us to purchase the place over the next few years. They sold us their remaining cows in June, and as they are still living there, we have been maintaining they cows as he had out of respect. It's only 21 hd, so not a huge deal, but we are planning to lease another section and grow to 40 hd in the next 1-2 years. Herd is mostly black, ranges in size from FS 5 to 7 +, cows weigh from 1250-1750 I would guess. Some really awesome cows int the bunch, and even my least favorites are pretty decent. Cows began Calving Sept 7th, and we have 7 on the ground, and about 5 more that could go any day. 7 first calf heifers, 3 2nd calvers and remaining 11 are 4-8. We checked teeth when we preg checked them, all older cows have great teeth. Cow were bred by neighbors bulls, both SAV Final Answer 0035 sons - same bulls used the year before and calves by these cows topped the sale the day they were sold, and it was one of the bigger sales of the year before the drought hit. Cows have been receiving 1.4 lbs cake/day/cow, and prior to calving appear as BCS 6 - 6.5, the ones that have calved are holding at a 5.5.

We plan to eventually finish all of our own calves and sell them on the rail, but for the first two years may only do 50% of the steers this way. Heifers = plan is to cull any for defects, then turn the bull in at 15 months for 45 days. Ones the are pregnant get to stay, ones that are open get finished and sold on the rail. We want to raise quality lbs over just quantity, but cattle that grow and finish fast will also grade better than ones that take 2.5 years to grow out. And around here a 1500 lb cull cow brings alot more than an 1100 lb cow, and I am talking per lb, not because she is heavier.

Since we bought fall calving cows late in the year, all of the bull sales were over except Pharo's... we had to decide to go to that sale, or take a chance on a set of 5 that we consigned to our salebarn... they were out of purebred angus heifers, AI sired by simmental bull Olie http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0403. We called the owner, got lots of details about his herd, the buss, the way they were fed , semen test results, etc. We went early, pick the two we liked out of 5 and bought them. Not necessarily my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice on buying bulls for our new herd, but Thing 1 & Thing 2 have grown nicely the last 4 months, and look like very muck like their sire, and cost much less than a Pharo bull would have :lol2: I am actually liking them enough to think about saving their heifers which would be 1/4 sim, 3/4 blk 'angus'.

I really like the look and growth of the SAV calves, and would like to AI the cows I consider ideal to one of the SAV bulls such as Net Worth or Bismark to retain a bull calf for our herd as I cannot afford to grow the herd and purchase a $7,500 bull at the same time. I have also considered bulls like Wave http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus. ... o=29AN1701 or Prime Star http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus. ... =237AN2074 as they also have the Carcass values with a much better $EN number. I really am not as concerned with frame score as I am actually weight of the cows, but I would like to have a consistent bunch that is a little harder to tell apart :lol2:

So my questions...

Which way do I go with bulls to produce fast growing, efficient calves that will grow fast and hang well?

How much value do you place on $EN at your place - does it seem accurate?

As far as EPD's go, my thinking as far as Angus bull are concerned was:
Milk 25 or lower
Marb .35 +
RE .30 +
YH +1 or lower...
WW + 40 or better
YW +80 or better

ANY and ALL suggestions if you have made it this far, even if they are negative... I have thick skin. Need to decide a direction and stick with it for a few years to really see the results... please share any experiences you have using either SAV, Green Garden, or $EN effect!

Also, as a quick side note... we raise a few pigs as well... mostly herefords. Bought a 1/2 duroc, 1/2 landrace to see if mothering was better... Bred a homeraised hereford gilt and her to the same boar at the same time... Both had 11 piglets a week apart - gave the 1/2 duroc full feed the whole lactation and she still lost weight. Had to limit feed the hereford, finally cut her feed in half pert near to the point I felt like I was starving her. Weaned and put both back with the boar 2 days ago... Hereford looks CHUBBY, and my 1/2 duroc sow still looks thin!! And no, the crossbred did not wean the heavier litter... hers are long and lean like she is, and my hereford babies are little rollie pollies... So the industry would prefer the crossbred sow for leanness and feed efficiency, but on my farm she cost me double to get the same piglets weaned. I want to replicate this in my cows 'hopefully' without it taking 10 years of breeding and experimenting.

I am done rambling now :tiphat:

 

[cow pollinater]

It sounds to me like you have a good handle on what you want. Olie is a good addition to your goals. He'll do more for you than alot of the angus sires in the catalog and still keep them english sized and add heterosis. Wave or prime star would absolutley help with carcass and they're both good growth bulls as well but you'll have a hard time making a consistant set of cattle unless you have access to more that are their size. It would be alot easier to ease up on $EN and choose cattle that will match your Olie sons and then work on reducing size and energy requirements over time.

 

[FlowerFieldFarm]

Thanks cow pollinater... I already feel more organized after getting it all out on paper. I am actually growing quite fond of the Olie sons Really didn't plan on using simmi at first, but if their calves turn out nice and I save heifers, that should give me a more consistent group to work from. Since we do plan to AI, I am now wondering if it would make sense to AI for the maternal strengths and retain heifers from that group, then go ahead and use the SAV genetics to produce a bull calf every year or two as a terminal sire to add lbs to calf crop, but the $EN really won't affect the base herd of cows. Thoughts?

 

[cow pollinater]

$EN is a good tool but it's another tool in a whole drawer full of tools. You have bulls that are sim influenced, it's going to be a while before you can get to where a wave daughter isn't going to stick out like a sore thumb. :lol:
I'd focus on finding the most energy efficient bulls you can get that are similar to your Olie's and then just average down a little bit every year.

 

[snake67]

Not to be a smart azz - but I would sell every cow you have on the place - buy the cheapest horned herfs I could find and cross them to a decent angus bull and sell baldies.

Forget AI and semen and storage and nitrogen.

Forget pedigrees and some outfit called Pharo - which to me means - much like a place that is "perfect for horses" - over priced.

Forget fancy combinations

When you take their clothes off, that steak usually tastes pretty much the same anyways - as long as the feed is good - for the most part the beef will be good.

And do you think the guy in the third row at the sale barn really gives a darn what you have in the field? Some maybe do - but the majority just want an animal that is healthy and will put on weight and is black

Somehow people think black is the answer - but not everyone has the brains to think about how to get them there - buy cheap red and make them black - cheap to do, fast, easy and you will get more bang for your buck

Herfs - especially horned ones - cheap to buy because no one wants a red cow with horns - except me it seems - easy to keep - and those baldie calves sell real well in almost every part of the continent.

The Herfs live on dust and dirt - need little care and their calves grow like stink

Seems this day and age everyone wants a pretty herd - but the point is to spend as little as possible and sell for as high as possible.

Profit talks - pretty will get you a kiss and if you are lucky - a thank you once you got that kiss - pretty will not always get you anything more - so look at PROFIT!!!

This is one method that works and works darned well - and there are thousands of ranchers out there that do it - so I am not the only one who thinks that way

Just a thought because you asked this question - "New herd... what steps to take to reach desired herd?"

Before you go too far you might think on what herd you truly do desire LOL - might I suggest the cheapest one possible and add an angus bull?

Make some money first - then do the fancy schitte - you might find you want to stay right in the baldie market once you have been there for a bit - money to be made there

And finally - remember - the banker is not really your friend - miss a couple of payments and see how his smile goes away

Best of luck in whatever road you decide to drive down

Best regards

Bez

 

[FlowerFieldFarm]

Thanks for the reply...

I've actually owned these new cows since June, so selling them now with the market lower isn't really what I have in mind. I really don't have anything against herefords and when we expand I have thought of adding in some and running with the same bull... but I digress.

The neighbor we lease from is 80, was born on this farm. As of this month, we now have all the grass leased and the 380 a cropland... These were his cows, and now he still gets to see them everyday, I just get the calves =) I was lucky that they really were a nice bunch to begin with, just a little uneven in size, and I want to make sure I am breeding for more efficiency and fleshing ability as we go along. I'm not planning on using Pharo bulls - that is why I went with the Olie bulls from the salebarn!

 

[SRBeef]

Bez and others are much more knowledgeable about cattle than I am. I think the key thing he is saying to you is to stand back and get a full picture and make a plan before plodding ahead.

In any business, and cattle can be a business or a hobby - I'm assuming you want to run as a business, you should start with a business plan, not a breeding plan.

Define what it is you are going to sell, how much of it are you going to sell, who are you going to sell it to, when are you going to sell it and for what likely price. This will give you a target annual gross income figure to work with along with the timing of that income.

I think one of Bez key points is that if you are selling on the rail, high dollar genetics is not necessary. Of course you want good genetics but it doesn't need to be big name and expensive.

I think a key point here is your arrangement with the 80 year old sellers. You have to keep their wishes in mind, at least for a start.

Another key point is to use a computer program to keep track of everything and also a scale. Weigh the herd as often as possible. Patterns will start to jump out at you that are not really apparent looking at the herd.

Best of luck to you and your husband with this opportunity.

Jim

Then work back from there into