need advice on fencing

[moloss]

I'm needing to put up some new fence....it will be barbed wire..... pressure treated posts are about 9-10 dollars cheaper per post than a creosote post (5/6"x8' at tractor supply or co-op).....I was gonna get the pressure treated is there any reason not to?......when it comes to H bracing does it matter how large the H is? in my mind I'd take an eight foot post cut it in half and save, is there any reason why my H can't be 4'? any and all suggestions are needed and appreciated.....Chris.

 

[Cowdirt]

I'm needing to put up some new fence....it will be barbed wire..... pressure treated posts are about 9-10 dollars cheaper per post than a creosote post (5/6"x8' at tractor supply or co-op).....I was gonna get the pressure treated is there any reason not to?......when it comes to H bracing does it matter how large the H is? in my mind I'd take an eight foot post cut it in half and save, is there any reason why my H can't be 4'? any and all suggestions are needed and appreciated.....Chris.

Moloss, they're both pressure treated but all pressure treating is not equal. I prefer the posts that I get thru our co-op to those at TSC. Yes the distance between the uprights in the H matters. 4' is too close together. I usually use about a 7' brace between the uprights.

 

[CVAR]

Definately do not cut an 8' in half for your H. I always buy 3, six foot posts that are at least 6" wide and I never cut the middle post except to trim an inch or two (I usually try to set the two outside posts just shy of 6')

It's funny, I can always tell who has moved out to the country from town because they always put up h braces that have a 3 or 4 foot span - which is worthless, don't do this to yourself. The h's are the MOST important part of the fence, once those are up right, you are set to pull as hard as you want for tension on the wire. I suggest you take a drive and look at bigger ranches that have nive looking fences, then drive til you see an h so you have an idea. You will be happy when you do one right!

 

[LRTX1]

We use a good quality pressure treated post, last a real long time. I don't think I would spend 10 bucks more for creosote. We only use 8 footers as the corner and 6 1/2 footers in the rest of the brace. A good fence is all in the bracing and corners.

I've been re-using some fence posts lately, come across some PT post with a Date Nail 1978, that were as solid as new.

 

[Cowdirt]

We use a good quality pressure treated post, last a real long time. I don't think I would spend 10 bucks more for creosote. We only use 8 footers as the corner and 6 1/2 footers in the rest of the brace. A good fence is all in the bracing and corners.

I've been re-using some fence posts lately, come across some PT post with a Date Nail 1978, that were as solid as new.

He's telling you right. If you're going to skimp anywhere on your fence; don't let it be on your corners and braces. Got a neighbor who built a 6 strand barb fence; pulled the wire real tight, probably too tight, and every corner is leaning.

 

[moloss]

kinda what I thought on cutting them but I had to ask (penny saved penny earned).....thanks for all of y'alls input.....Chris.

 

[Angus In Texas]

A penny saved could be two or three fixing the problem later.

 

[Dave]

There is a direct relationship between the lenght of the horizontal brace and the hieght off the ground to the amount of support it provides. That is why a 10 foot brace is better than an 8 footer. I believe that it is that the brace should be no more than 1/3 of its lenght off the ground. So a 10 foot brace can be 40 inches while a 8 footer should be no more than 32 inches off the ground. A 4 foot brace placed more than 16 inches above the ground would be providing very limited support if any at all.

 

[Sessions]

Might help you a little

 

[upfrombottom]

There is a direct relationship between the lenght of the horizontal brace and the hieght off the ground to the amount of support it provides. That is why a 10 foot brace is better than an 8 footer. I believe that it is that the brace should be no more than 1/3 of its lenght off the ground. So a 10 foot brace can be 40 inches while a 8 footer should be no more than 32 inches off the ground. A 4 foot brace placed more than 16 inches above the ground would be providing very limited support if any at all.

It is a quite interesting engineering statics equation that has to do with the angle of the diagonal wires on the brace. To try and put it simply, the resistance of pulling the post sideways or horizontally through the ground as a plow, is what allows the "H" brace to withstand tension from the fence wires. The closer the post are, the steeper the angle on the diagonal wires on the brace. The steeper the angle, the more the tension on the diagonal is transferred to pulling the middle or second post upwards and out of the ground instead of sideways. So, the further the post are apart, the more the tension is transferred to the horizontal, which is where the greatest resistance is. Clear as mud? By the way, when I try to explain to my wife how things work, she generally gets the deer in the headlights look, so I know this will be extremely boring to some.

 

[plumber_greg]

Upfrom, tell me why, if it is true, a H-brace works better than putting both the wire at one angle and the brace at the other angle. lXl kinda like that. I always use an H-brace cuz' it looks better, but what's the difference? Thanks gs

 

[johndeerefarmer]

We have used "H" braces since the forties- for us, the brace goes in the middle of the posts, not at the top. Also, we make our barbwire braces like an "X". If it is a particularly long run, or if the corner posts are small in diameter, we use three posts instead of two.

Having said this, I quit using wood several years ago. We can't get cresote posts here any more and the CCA and newer stuff isn't very good. I have had several of the horiz cross braces rot out after about 10 years. Everything now is steel pipe sit in concrete

 

[upfrombottom]

Upfrom, tell me why, if it is true, a H-brace works better than putting both the wire at one angle and the brace at the other angle. lXl kinda like that. I always use an H-brace cuz' it looks better, but what's the difference? Thanks gs

It's kinda hard to explain, but for the "H" brace to work properly or ideally, the diagonal "cross" must be in constant tension. Hence the need for the "H" or horizontal brace, to hold the post apart and keep the diagonal wires in tension. There is no reason why a solid or wood cross cannot hold tension the same as wire, except for the connection to the post, where wire can be wrapped around the post, making the connection much stronger. The design is to make the resistance of pulling the post horizontally through the ground, resist the tension, or pull, of the fence wire. The resistance is increased if you are pulling two or three post in unison, instead of one.

We have used "H" braces since the forties- for us, the brace goes in the middle of the posts, not at the top.

Actually, that would be the logical place to put it, but if you think about standing between two post, firmly planted in the ground, with a hand on each post pulling them together toward you, the easiest place to pull them together is the top. I personally have never seen a 6" fence post with a 1 or 2 foot bend in the top because the brace was put lower.

 

[HOSS]

If you can find some old telephone poles that the utility company has taken down and replaced with new ones...Snatch em' up and use those. Most all of my perimeter fence is made using telephone poles cut into 8' lengths. The big butt ends are put at corners or at gate openings. We set them 3' deep and concrete them in. I have been using 8' treated landscape timbers as cross supports. They are cheap,work great and last forever. I have a couple of the big butted telephon pole ends set in concrete up near a curve in the road. Last year a drunk lost it on the curve and drilled one of the posts dead center. It totaled his truck but the post was barely moved. It just loosened up the tension on the wire and sprang a few of the wire clips off of the T-posts.

 

[johndeerefarmer]

We have used "H" braces since the forties- for us, the brace goes in the middle of the posts, not at the top.

Actually, that would be the logical place to put it, but if you think about standing between two post, firmly planted in the ground, with a hand on each post pulling them together toward you, the easiest place to pull them together is the top. I personally have never seen a 6" fence post with a 1 or 2 foot bend in the top because the brace was put lower.[/quote]

Since we put the horizontal bracing in the center we use two wires forming an "X" from the top of one post to the bottom of the other. This way the bottom of the second post is keeping the top of the other post from leaning. Also the "x" made of barbwire helps to hold the cross brace in place in case a cow runs into or is knocked into it. Anyhow my grandpa and dad started making them that way in 1942 and we have been making them the same way ever since. Also, I was taught to not put wood posts in concrete, it would make them rot faster.

On a side note, in the forties and fifties all of our corner posts and line posts were bodark cut from our farm by hand- no chainsaw! Believe it or not, I can still show you some of those posts that are still not rotted. We also had a Katy railroad line run thru our property and some of the cross ties were also used as corner posts as well as posts in the barns. Some of these cresoted oak timbers are still holding our hay barn up today

 

[plumber_greg]

But, Upfrombottom, in a H brace setup, is everything dependent on the wire from the brace to the corner? Why isn't the cross
(lxl) less dependent on the wire? I know a guy that makes the cross out of steel pipe, welded, with no wire at all. (l\l) His response to why is "It's just simple geomerty." I don't want him to be right, but is he? gs

 

[upfrombottom]

But, Upfrombottom, in a H brace setup, is everything dependent on the wire from the brace to the corner? Why isn't the cross
(lxl) less dependent on the wire? I know a guy that makes the cross out of steel pipe, welded, with no wire at all. (l\l) His response to why is "It's just simple geomerty." I don't want him to be right, but is he? gs

It's really hard to explain without drawing some diagrams and equations, but when I get a little time I'll try and clear some confusion. As for the geometry, its trigonometry and statics that make it work.

 

[LRTX1]

I don't kow if I can explain it in print.....

Has anyone ever heard of, what we call, a deadman? We sometimes bury a short 2' long 4x4 or post, perpindicular to the corner on the back side...oppsite side from the pull, tight to the post, about 2' deep. In theory it keeps the bottom of your corner pushing out while pulling the top strands. I have used it with success on short pulls with no brace wire, and has helped on longer pulls in addition to the brace wires.

 

[dun]

I don't kow if I can explain it in print.....

Has anyone ever heard of, what we call, a deadman? We sometimes bury a short 2' long 4x4 or post, perpindicular to the corner on the back side...oppsite side from the pull, tight to the post, about 2' deep. In theory it keeps the bottom of your corner pushing out while pulling the top strands. I have used it with success on short pulls with no brace wire, and has helped on longer pulls in addition to the brace wires.

I've used them a few times but now just use a floating brace. No way to get a hole big enough for a deadman around here

 

[LRTX1]

Another thing we do thats not "common" when setting corners. Under some of our pole barns, the dirt turns to a real fine sand. It hasn't seen light or water for many years. We pour that sand into the post hole while shaking/tapping the post. The sand fills all the voids without packing and sets better than if it was packed. You can make your pull immediately unlike using concrete.

I imagine, a lot of folks don't have the soil to do such a thing. It's almost as fine as powder.