Need advice, AI or Bull?

[Kell-inKY]

I am 3 years into this little endeavor and I still don't know anything but am starting to at least know what I don't know. I think I was happier not knowing what I didn't know.

I currently have a bull and 6 cows w/calves, I'm retaining 3 heifer calves. This week I get my results back to know if all 6 are pregnant, and if they are, I'm getting rid of the bull because it's a pain to keep them separate. Will eventually work up to 10-20 cows if I can handle it.

For an operation as small as mine, will it be a problem switching to AI? Not many large animal vets in my area, the ones I did call said roughly $100 a head, not including semen which falls on me IIRC. Sounds like they will have to come out and get them in sync, then come back in a few weeks, with no guarantees on pregnancy. If they do not get pregnant, I suppose we go through the process until they are? sounds expensive. Will need to get them on a better schedule too, they are all over the map.

Other option is to rent a bull and bring who knows what into my herd, but everyone else does it? I would just keep my bull if I sold off the heifers (he's docile), still figuring out how best to lose money I guess.

Any general info appreciated.

 

[Rafter S]

You said you'd sell your bull because "it's a pain to keep them separate". Why do you need to keep them separate? To keep the heifers from getting bred too young? If that's the case you might consider selling your heifer calves and buying bred cows.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Yes, and they are his heifer's too.

No matter what, if I keep the bull, I will have to separate him whenever I have heifers. I'm getting tired of that, I guess I'm just lazy but it's a pain to have 2 separate everything (minerals, fly rubs, hay etc.) and work the cattle in 2 places the way it is now.

Your logic is good, and sounds more profitable. My end goal is to sell grass fed beef (I know, but there is a market here for that). I should have stated that first if I was thinking. And I will have to work my way into that slowly, AI will allow me to do something crazy like Wagyu if I want as well, or better bulls than what I currently have without having to run it all year.

Don't get me wrong, I like having the bull there, and if I had all steers it would be a no brainer.

 

[Dave]

At a $100 plus semen (at $20 a straw) that would be $720 on 6 cows. And that is if they didn't have to make return trips to breed a second time. You would be better off to buy a decent but not over priced bull. Kick him out for 60-90 days and then sell him. You would lose money on the bull but not that much and you would have better odds of getting them all bred.

 

[cow pollinater]

I'd be willing to bet you can get AI done a lot cheaper than that. Call every stud and ask if someone is local and ask the vet for script on the medicines and sync them yourself.

 

[Lazy M]

I'd be willing to bet you can get AI done a lot cheaper than that. Call every stud and ask if someone is local and ask the vet for script on the medicines and sync them yourself.

That's what I'm thinking too. Call ABS or Select Sires they'll hook you up with a local ai tech. Including semen you should be able to get it done (one service) for around $45-$50. The real problem will be if they didn't take on the first service, most ai techs won't want to come back out for just 1 or 2. It may be worthwhile for you to take the breeding class.

 

[Sd1030]

Really a toss up id say. Like others have mentioned you can prolly get it done cheaper, the biggest drawback to me with ai is having to rebred if one dont catch. Ive been through the class and it is very interesting to learn about, and i actually was able to do some of mine and also helped a friend ai around 45 back in Jan. I learned alot and enjoyed it, but it is right much work invovled. If you take the course and do it yourself youll need a semen tank, the gun, etc which are added costs. But it opens the door for you to use all sorts of genetics on your herd.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Thank you all for the advice,
if anything though, you're making it a harder decision!

With them being strung out like they are, I guess first priority is to get them all on the same schedule next year. That's going to be difficult. I think I got off on the wrong foot and now I am suffering the consequences. 4 calved between May-July, and my 2 newest I'm guessing Nov-Dec.

Thanks again

 

[Ky hills]

To me AI vs a bull is something I struggle with also, I still use clean up bulls after AI, so in a sense I still have to deal with bulls afterwards. With their calving being spread out, you may could use a younger bull, and then sell him after about a year. That price for AI sounds high, as others have said, it would be a good idea to check with some of the AI stud companies, a lot of them have area reps, I have went through a rep service, here in the eastern part of the state. There may also be some individuals that AI their own cattle in your area, that may be willing to do some custom work.

 

[Dave]

Most dairies AI. Check with any dairies in your area, especially larger dairies where a hired man does the AI work. They are generally up for making an extra dollar or two on their day off. And they probably have more practice at it than most vets do.

I sync and do a timed AI on 60 heifers every year. I do the sync work and a guy I know from a local dairy does the actual breeding. It cost me the same dollars to do 60 head as your vet wants to do 6.

 

[boondocks]

Thank you all for the advice,
if anything though, you're making it a harder decision!

With them being strung out like they are, I guess first priority is to get them all on the same schedule next year. That's going to be difficult. I think I got off on the wrong foot and now I am suffering the consequences. 4 calved between May-July, and my 2 newest I'm guessing Nov-Dec.

Thanks again

Kell, you and I started out about the same time (with small herds) and struggle with similar "ponderies." Where you went "bull" right off the bat, we went "AI" right off the bat (no clean-up bull either). I can't say there aren't headaches to AI but I can't imagine keeping a bull for just a handful of cows. In just 2-3 seasons of AI, we are already seeing improvements in our herd (registered Angus). We are starting to sell replacements heifers and grassfed beef. I second what everyone has said above about the cost. Pay to have the vet come out the first time and show you the ropes of the sync protocol (timed AI), having an AI tech actually do the AI. (I agree that Select Sires ro one of the other semen companies will probably send someone your way to do the deed). Once you know how to give the shots and insert the CIDRs, it's not that hard (and you can do it the next time around). After the vet gets your sync started, then the AI tech just comes out on a pre-scheduled date/time to do the AI. (The semen co. will send you a catalog in advance, so you can pick the sire well in advance and make sure the tech has it in the tank). Then just watch for heats beginning about Day 18 after AI breeding and continuing until about Day 26 (that's what we do anyway). Immediately call tech if you see any in heat; ours comes back out to re-breed for just one. (Make sure you have a good system to catch them so you don't waste his/her time though). Our success rates have varied from 20% (ugh) to 100% on a given "round." (The 20% was a bit low as we didn't get the sync timing down ideally that time, and turned out to have a freemartin in there). Overall we are hitting north of 50% usually, and catch another 25% on the next natural heat. if you're not doing a clean-up bull, and plan to give them a second chance (we do, since AI is an art not a science entirely), have the vet preg-check ASAP after AI, to identify any that came back into heat but you missed it. (Our vet comes a bit over a month after we AI). Depending on if we're giving her a second chance, if the vet calls her open, we insert a new CIDR and give her GnRH shot while she's in the chute and thereby re-start the TAI sync on the spot.

With your calving spread out now, I guess you will have to decide which stay and which go. (We are in the same boat). If I was you I might consider selling the Nov-Dec ones at weaning....
Good luck!

 

[Hunter]

I looked into AI and was told it was about 50-60 per head and figure 50% success rate. I did buy a bull but I am still trying to deciding if I will AI my 12 heifers as well.

 

[bball]

Is renting a bull an option in your area? We have 3 different guys here around me that keep anywhere from 20-40 bulls on hand and rent them out real reasonable specifically for guys who only have a small herd and don't want to keep a bull. BSE tested and STD verified clean. Check out your local cattleman association. Those guys will know where to steer you, if they aren't already at the meeting.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Lots of good info,

Good idea on the dairy. We only had 2 local dairies, both went out of business last year but I can still call one to see who they used to AI or if they did it themselves. Really bothered me when they shut down, one was pretty much a landmark around here.

Renting is an option if I reserve one early enough, about as much chance of having it tested as buying tested hay around here (slim to none). Much like AI'ing, if I rent a bull, I will need them on a tight calving schedule, and I am all over the map at the present. I could just start over I guess but that's a pretty depressing thought. Or I could just cull some and move everyone to fall calving without losing too much time I suppose. Just sell all heifers going forward and not worry about that either.

Like I said, the end goal is to produce grass fed beef, I need to start out slow so we can learn from our mistakes, but eventually I don't think a half dozen to a dozen steers a year is unthinkable in our area.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

 

[Ky hills]

Lots of good info,

Good idea on the dairy. We only had 2 local dairies, both went out of business last year but I can still call one to see who they used to AI or if they did it themselves. Really bothered me when they shut down, one was pretty much a landmark around here.

Renting is an option if I reserve one early enough, about as much chance of having it tested as buying tested hay around here (slim to none). Much like AI'ing, if I rent a bull, I will need them on a tight calving schedule, and I am all over the map at the present. I could just start over I guess but that's a pretty depressing thought. Or I could just cull some and move everyone to fall calving without losing too much time I suppose. Just sell all heifers going forward and not worry about that either.

Like I said, the end goal is to produce grass fed beef, I need to start out slow so we can learn from our mistakes, but eventually I don't think a half dozen to a dozen steers a year is unthinkable in our area.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

I can't quote the name or location right off hand, but there is an outfit that advertises bull for leasing somewhere in western KY, I see the add in the classified section of the KY Cattlemen's magazine, Cow Country News.
On a side note, most of the dairies have closed down here in the eastern part too.

 

[Kell-inKY]

Took pics of my bull last night to put up on craigslist. Man, I am really struggling with this decision.

I think I have this simplified, what do you think?

1. Keep him, sell my heifers immediately and replace with cows and continue to "run what ya brung" with them spread out all over the year. I have figured out that I have an emotional attachment to the idea of keeping my "farm raised heifers", that is not a good business decision. Will continue to have the headache of separating him when heifer calves get big enough to worry about, but not ready for weaning/selling. Love the flexibility of being able to buy anything, bring it in here, and get it bred with no hassle. Hate having that fat lazy butt sit around freeloading all day.

2. Sell bull, either let the cows remain open longer than usual to tighten up breeding schedule (for AI'ing or renting a bull), or cull hard. I don't like the thought of culling because I have to find some quality cows again and I don't know enough to pick winners out of a crowd. But, selling the bull opens up the possibility of doing something creative with the herd like high marbling Wagyu. I hate the idea of low percentage of breeding with AI though.

End goal is still to sell grass fed beef, nothing old enough yet so I haven't actually any, will be this fall.
I suppose I should post a pic of the bull in question but have seen the end result of that...... suffice to say, he is medium frame but fat, not a big bruiser, registered angus, semen tested etc. and has been very docile.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

No need to buy a bull! We run 30 cows now, and AI. No bull around here older than 12 months typically. TAKE A CLASS! Really, take an AI class. It cost about $500, and then you need a tank and supplies. Less then purchasing a bull, and then you can AI your cows on natural heats. We get way better conception because we breed on natural heats! Also, you have a bigger selection of sires to use.
What happens when one does not take to three attempts to AI? They are either shipped, or if we are lucky, we have an AI sired (or embryo) bull around that is 9 to 12 months old we can cover the cow with, then we will sell her as a bred (we have done this just twice in the 10 years we have been AI'ing). She is still a good cow, just not fertile enough to stick around our place.

 

[Kell-inKY]

We get way better conception because we breed on natural heats!

Did not know that, I think you just tipped the scale, I really appreciate it. Will start researching the class now.

 

[M.Magis]

Just a question, because my situation is similar. By breeding natural heats and giving them 2-3 chances, isn't your calving window quite large? Not having the time or ability to constantly watch for natural heats has been the main thing keeping me from trying AI, but the calving window question worries me as well. Syncing them tightens that up, but then conception drops, and I just don't have time to be constantly watching to see which ones took and which didn't. I still want to AI at some point, but just don't think not having a bull will work very well for me, at least at this time.

 

[boondocks]

Just a question, because my situation is similar. By breeding natural heats and giving them 2-3 chances, isn't your calving window quite large? Not having the time or ability to constantly watch for natural heats has been the main thing keeping me from trying AI, but the calving window question worries me as well. Syncing them tightens that up, but then conception drops, and I just don't have time to be constantly watching to see which ones took and which didn't. I still want to AI at some point, but just don't think not having a bull will work very well for me, at least at this time.

Magis, that's the one thing we have struggled with, using solely AI. There's no question that it's the main downside to AI. I will say that using timed AI followed by breeding (on natural heat) any that come back into heat, we usually manage to get most of them bred within a 45 day window. We have had a few take 3 tries, and it's those few outliers that hose things up. (I hope to get better over time at knowing when something (timing, technique, etc) wasn't ideal on our end (such that a 3rd try is really more like a second try), versus when a cow really shouldn't get a third chance. The other issue we've had is one or two that didn't breed but didn't show a subsequent heat either. They're not tame enough to let me just slap a heat detection patch on them, so we just keep an eye on them from about day 17-26 post-AI. We also preg-check asap as a back-up). I think it would be ideal if after the second try, we could send her to a neighbors for a month to visit a bull. But we run a closed herd and I worry about diseases etc....No perfect answer, but to us, still beats a bull, and our cows have made good progress quickly. (Our first one butchered was prime).

I have to emphasize (and others with more AI experience will hopefully chime in) that if you go the timed AI route, you really need to have the insemination performed within the proper window (in hours) from the time of the prior step in the synch protocol. At least in the published studies, a few hours' swing in one direction or the other can greatly affect your rates.