Natural Selection

[ALACOWMAN]

But you bring up a good point, is human managment or natural selection better for genetics?

Natural selection would probably be better for survival genetics, but if it creates an animal with all horns, hide and no meat what's the point? I suppose if it was done that way some wise guy would introduce an actual beef breed, like Herefords, to make them eatable.

dun

duns right. buy the time we created this chicken bone outfit we would be looking for ways to put meat back on it. are soaken what meat they have in some kind of seasoning to make it edible

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'll play what if. What if you have a small closed herd,no other cattle near your boundry, and the only new additions to your herd is a virgin bull just often enough not to inbreed and you select them from small closed herds.Could it be possible to keep a healthy herd without vaccinations?

It may be possible today, but I don't think you'd want to chance it. There are many airborn viruses that could simply come from an animal being trailered by, or from another cattle producer coming to visit. There may something in the soil that wouldn't poke its head up until environmental conditions are right.

Rod

 

[Beef11]

If you read back and look at the history of the longhorn you can see that they almost went extinct at the hands of the herefords, shorthorns and angus. simply because they couldn't compete economically. Its far cheaper to give good cattle shots than to try and breed resistance into crappy ones. If going without a vac. program was economically viable i would be doing it. It works great until you need it, then you screwed yourself. There is a thread talking about bottle calves where a similar topic was discussed.

 

[aplusmnt]

I had got the idea he was talking about not taking cattle like longhorns. But possibly taking a herd of say Angus, and keep them and let only the strong survive. If they could not make it with out vaccinations then only the strongest would survive and then pass down to their offspring that strong easy keeping genetics. But in the end you would still have Angus cattle just the weak would have died off and only the most hardy genetics would have lasted. Still good tasting beef, just easy keepers that can survive on their own.

I might be wrong just that was the impression I got from the start of the thread.

 

[msscamp]

I'll play what if. What if you have a small closed herd,no other cattle near your boundry, and the only new additions to your herd is a virgin bull just often enough not to inbreed and you select them from small closed herds.Could it be possible to keep a healthy herd without vaccinations?

Yes, it is. We've done it for a number of years now. Our cows are vaccinated for Brucellosis and Scour-Garded and that's it unless a buyer wants a specific vaccine prior to delivery. We run a closed herd, have no neighboring cattle, and no problems. The only bulls that enter this property are virgin's that are purchased private treaty from reputable breeders. Of course, having stated that I've just jinxed us. Please Lord, this is not a challenge!

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Of course, having stated that I've just jinxed us. Please Lord, this is not a challenge!

:lol: You're done for now. Best head to the vet and get a few bottles of vaccine

Seriously though, do you not have any blackleg in your soil? We didn't have blackleg troubles on our ranch until about 7 years ago. I lost my first calves to blackleg that fall. Up until then, we'd never lost a single animal to blackleg, and my family has been ranching this piece of dirt since 1928. Not knowing anything about the disease back then, I thought maybe it had come in with something I bought. But other producers with closed herds noted the same thing that year. The explanation we were given was that environmental conditions were right for the spores in the soil to activate.

Rod

 

[msscamp]

Of course, having stated that I've just jinxed us. Please Lord, this is not a challenge!

:lol: You're done for now. Best head to the vet and get a few bottles of vaccine

That's what I'm thinking, too! Oh Lord, how am I going to explain this to Dad? :shock: :shock: :shock:


Seriously though, do you not have any blackleg in your soil? We didn't have blackleg troubles on our ranch until about 7 years ago.

We have never, ever had a case of blackleg - not in the 40+ years that we've been doing this - but our herd has been a closed herd for the most part. We raise our replacements and, until the last few years, our bulls as well. We have only had a very few outside cows introduced. Knock on wood, please Lord, this is not a challenge!

The explanation we were given was that environmental conditions were right for the spores in the soil to activate.

I think that's one good thing about the unfriendly environment of Wyoming - it tends to not allow anything to grow or activate. I don't have any other explanation for it - with the possible exception of sheer luck.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I think that's one good thing about the unfriendly environment of Wyoming - it tends to not allow anything to grow or activate.

:lol: Who needs that pesky grass? :lol: There are days when I wish I'd headed south and started someplace else. :lol: Sure, it only takes a couple acres of grass to keep a cow/calf pair all summer, and another 3 or 4 acres of hay to keep that pair fed all winter, but with all the rain and humidity, we can get doggoned near any disease thats in the books.

I've worked cattle my whole life, and other than having to deal with the occasional snotty nose, or scours once in a blue moon, its been pretty quiet. The last 4 years have been something else. Odd weather patterns and alot of import cattle from other areas (guys snapping up the cheaper bred cows from ranches shutting down due to BSE) have led to outbreaks of doggoned near everything.

Rod

 

[msscamp]

I think that's one good thing about the unfriendly environment of Wyoming - it tends to not allow anything to grow or activate.

:lol: Who needs that pesky grass? :lol: There are days when I wish I'd headed south and started someplace else. :lol: Sure, it only takes a couple acres of grass to keep a cow/calf pair all summer, and another 3 or 4 acres of hay to keep that pair fed all winter, but with all the rain and humidity, we can get doggoned near any disease thats in the books.

I've worked cattle my whole life, and other than having to deal with the occasional snotty nose, or scours once in a blue moon, its been pretty quiet. The last 4 years have been something else. Odd weather patterns and alot of import cattle from other areas (guys snapping up the cheaper bred cows from ranches shutting down due to BSE) have led to outbreaks of doggoned near everything.

Rod

Here it takes 33 acres per cow, we get an average of 10" of rainfall/year, we have our first snowfall before Oct 31 and summer doesn't hit for real until the middle of June. Humidity is something we have to deal with with about 5 days out of the summer. The native grasses are very adept at dealing with the harsh environment, but I seriously doubt you will see bermuda, coastal, orchard, or any type of fescue unless it's irrigated. We tend to run to various types of wheatgrass, blackroot grass, brome, and several types of nuisance grasses - including cheatgrass and needlegrass. There are days I wish I'd headed north or east or west - anywhere but here! I was born and raised here and I love Wyoming. If one can make it in Wyoming, one can make it most anyplace because one will have grass management down to a science! ;-) I would hate to tell you the number of people who have purchased land here and went belly up within a year or two because they didn't understand grass management.

 

[aplusmnt]

I think that's one good thing about the unfriendly environment of Wyoming - it tends to not allow anything to grow or activate.

:lol: Who needs that pesky grass? :lol: There are days when I wish I'd headed south and started someplace else. :lol: Sure, it only takes a couple acres of grass to keep a cow/calf pair all summer, and another 3 or 4 acres of hay to keep that pair fed all winter, but with all the rain and humidity, we can get doggoned near any disease thats in the books.

I've worked cattle my whole life, and other than having to deal with the occasional snotty nose, or scours once in a blue moon, its been pretty quiet. The last 4 years have been something else. Odd weather patterns and alot of import cattle from other areas (guys snapping up the cheaper bred cows from ranches shutting down due to BSE) have led to outbreaks of doggoned near everything.

Rod

Here it takes 33 acres per cow, we get an average of 10" of rainfall/year, we have our first snowfall before Oct 31 and summer doesn't hit for real until the middle of June. Humidity is something we have to deal with with about 5 days out of the summer. The native grasses are very adept at dealing with the harsh environment, but I seriously doubt you will see bermuda, coastal, orchard, or any type of fescue unless it's irrigated. We tend to run to various types of wheatgrass, blackroot grass, brome, and several types of nuisance grasses - including cheatgrass and needlegrass. There are days I wish I'd headed north or east or west - anywhere but here! I was born and raised here and I love Wyoming. If one can make it in Wyoming, one can make it most anyplace because one will have grass management down to a science! ;-) I would hate to tell you the number of people who have purchased land here and went belly up within a year or two because they didn't understand grass management.

It really takes 33 acres of land per Cow? Is land really cheap there? It seems like at that rate either land would have to be dirt cheap or no one could make it in the cattle business?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) average of 10" of rainfall/year, we have our first snowfall before Oct 31 and summer doesn't hit for real until the middle of June.

2) There are days I wish I'd headed north or east or west - anywhere but here!

1) You sound like our neck of the woods, except for that measly little bit of rain Especially the last couple years, its not been uncommon to get 10 inches in a week But we've had feast or famine on the rains. We'll get 4 weeks of steady rain, followed by 8 weeks of nothing. Unusual weather patterns for us, as we normally get a few days of rain, followed by a few nice days of growing, all cycling nicely in a near perfect, if short, growing season.

2) Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I went through Wyoming a few years back and remember thinking it would be a nice place to ranch. :lol:

Anyway, it looks like we kinda hi-jacked the thread. Sorry about that y'all.

Rod

 

[s_cooper]

in australia, in north western queensland, there are literally millions of acres of scrub that can't be fenced where cattle run wild and have been for atleast 100 years, they are able to combat wild dogs, drought and hot summers(though not cold winters) problem is that to catch them is damn near impossible because the bulls will charge any vehicles that come close making roundup a fairly expensive exhibition of bull dodging.further problems are that these "super" unvaccinated cattle are tough as old boots and are only good for dog food anyway and they cant handle a winter down south, and to even get the genetics means to risk losing your cows as the bulls can walk through fences and the cows will just as likely follow. this is wat happens down here though there may be a completely different situation up there. selective breeding is the way to go just so long as you keep your end objective in sight and don't get carried away with growth rates and lose touch with why your breeding cattle in the first place.

 

[dun]

one can make it most anyplace because one will have grass management down to a science!

Interestinf premise, but not accurate. They might have it down pat for that environemnt, those species of grass, but it all changes when you head somewhere else.
Got the shirt

dun

 

[norriscathy]

one can make it most anyplace because one will have grass management down to a science!

Interestinf premise, but not accurate. They might have it down pat for that environemnt, those species of grass, but it all changes when you head somewhere else.
Got the shirt

dun

Right on Dun! There is nothing that is a science about this business. It is all art; balancing the breed of cattle and grass that is best suited for your location and particular soil type, in order to accomplish the goals that you have set.

 

[Beef11]

There is nothing that is a science about this business. It is all art; balancing the breed of cattle and grass that is best suited for your location and particular soil type, in order to accomplish the goals that you have set.

This statement seems somewhat contradictorary seems like a lot of science to me. The Cowboy way done properly is a balance of science and finesse or art.

 

[andybob]

As I have stated before, some vaccinations are essential, Blackleg as a clostridial infection is one, as it survives in the soil for many years then suddenly appears again- with a vengence very often. Even a closed herd can be infected by disease introduced by wildlife and migratory birds.
I believe that the diseases that cattle can maintain a natural resistance to need not be vaccinated for keeping their immune system challenged. Outdoor pigs (free range) in Britain were far less affected by the massive P.R.R.S.outbreak some years ago than confined pigs, this was due to their immune systems being constantly challenged in the outdoor environment.
As our Tuli cattle were being ranched in the environment in which they evolved, it made no sense to pamper them,only manage them sensibly giving essential vaccinations but not for the common tick bourne diseases.
A herd of Herefords was started about 1898 near my farm, with the intention of supplying bulls to upgrade native cattle. The harsh environment too its toll,disease and poor nutrition weeded out the heavily conformed cattle, and fertility took several generations to attain respectable percentages.
The result was a well adapted full blood herd equal to the best selected native cattle in the same environment. It took three generations to achieve the same results as fourty years breeding of selected, adapted cattle. I still maintain the way to profit in harsh environments is to use adapted cattle and cross them to improved breeds in a rotational or terminal cross. Composite breeds are another alternative, but need to be bred with specific goals in mind, there are many good composites available but also some 'throw together'breeds that are far too inconsistant to be considered true breeds.

 

[TxStateCowboy]

At his south texas ranch near LaPryor, TX (about an hour from the border) my dad developed a herd that produced huge cattle, and enormous profit.

He started in the 80's buying 15 registered longhorns for dirt cheap prices. He bred them, along with some 10 limousin, and some pure brahma to a monster of a limousin bull. The whole of the group was bred in central texas and then when he bought the ranch in the late 80s he trucked his herd down there to "the mesquite desert" as i like to call the whole area.

Well long story short there has been 2 brangus bulls in that herd for 8 years now, and there are some of the most monstrous, bad-ass beef cattle that we truck out of that place every year or two.

We did not feed them (besides some hay in the winter, hardly though)
The herd count was probably 60-80 last summer before we started rounding them up (the problem, as they were wild as hell, but we got it done w/o horses, dogs, or help from outside, just had to use tricks and occasionally tackle a few in the pens)
They developed down there by themselves without our intervention, and only the strongest survived, and were not skinny by any means. This method definately worked and we have never given a vaccine or shot or medice to any of our animals.

Nature knows best and always wins, so might as well listen to it.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

At his south texas ranch near LaPryor, TX (about an hour from the border) my dad developed a herd that produced huge cattle, and enormous profit.

He started in the 80's buying 15 registered longhorns for dirt cheap prices. He bred them, along with some 10 limousin, and some pure brahma to a monster of a limousin bull. The whole of the group was bred in central texas and then when he bought the ranch in the late 80s he trucked his herd down there to "the mesquite desert" as i like to call the whole area.

Well long story short there has been 2 brangus bulls in that herd for 8 years now, and there are some of the most monstrous, bad-ass beef cattle that we truck out of that place every year or two.

We did not feed them (besides some hay in the winter, hardly though)
The herd count was probably 60-80 last summer before we started rounding them up (the problem, as they were wild as be nice, but we got it done w/o horses, dogs, or help from outside, just had to use tricks and occasionally tackle a few in the pens)
They developed down there by themselves without our intervention, and only the strongest survived, and were not skinny by any means. This method definately worked and we have never given a vaccine or shot or medice to any of our animals.

Nature knows best and always wins, so might as well listen to it.

nature aways wins thats is for sure. but history is our greatest teacher ;-)

 

[TxStateCowboy]

I agree Alacowman, history shows we have messed with cattle by breeding them too large, then too small, then too large, and just recently in history we're making moderate sized animals.

History may be the best teacher but show judges and breeders are not necessarily the best students.

 

[Texan]

....we have never given a vaccine or shot or medice to any of our animals.

Nature knows best and always wins, so might as well listen to it.

What happened to these wonder cattle when they were co-mingled with other cattle downstream? In marketing channels? At the feedlot? When they were exposed to things that they had never been exposed to, even through a vaccination response? Did nature win out then?