Natural Selection

[LonghornRanch]

(From the Heresy thread) Changing the subject for a second, all my animals get the recommended vaccinations. Idea for everyone to think about. This is not possible, because we all need to make money. But I think the cattle breeds would be stronger without vaccinations in the long run. The weak would die, passing on better gentics. Look at the Longhorns..... 500 years of natural section made the Longhorns Disease/Parasite resistance, better reproductive efficiency, better longevity and better forage utilization. On the down side, 500 years also made Longhorns small, thin, lean and those horns get in the way. I have always felt that the goverment needed to make large natural reserves for diffirent cattle breeds and leave them alone. Let natural selection work it's magic.

Mother nature know's best..... but she can also be very harsh on the wallet!

Please......this post is for friendly debate!

 

[LonghornRanch]

Let drought stress the cattle, let the bulls fight for mating rights, let the cows birth with no help. No drugs and vaccinations! Let the winter kill some cattle. I bet in two hundred years we would have better/healther breeds of cattle.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Let drought stress the cattle, let the bulls fight for mating rights, let the cows birth with no help. No drugs and vaccinations! Let the winter kill some cattle. I bet in two hundred years we would have better/healther breeds of cattle.

LOL! Don't think the commercial cattle people would want to go that route...even if it meant hardier cattle in 100 years or so.

Yes, the Longhorns with their 500 year history of natural selection have evolved some excellent traits...that allow them to function in any part of the World.

However, the serious Longhorn breeders also add proper nutrition, matings, etc., to produce a fuller-bodied Longhorn that has its place in the industry.

Our longhorns (and a lot of other Longhorn breeders) only do preventive vaccinations, and de-worming. Having a "sick" longhorn or one with a calving problem is essentially a "non-issue". We just don't have sick calves or calves that die due to illness, etc. They "hit the ground running" and produce into their late teens and 20's... Only Vet bills are Brucellosis vaccinations and TB testing.

And, more and more ranchers are using Longhorn bulls for cross-breeding to pass on this hybrid vigor...

 

[LonghornRanch]

Running Arrow Bill, the (WR) Wichita Refuse in OK is a good example for the Longhorns. But I would like more nature selection and less human management in goverment herd programs.

This is a "what if" post.

Cattlemen and breeders need to make money. Goverment herds are the only way to do natural selection.

Did you see the Longhorns at the Ft. Worth Stock show? WOW! The breeders are doing a great job putting on more "size", horn and color!

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

Now you've confused me Longhornranch. You advocate natural selection and all the other survival of the fittest protocols, but then you offer the WOW comment in complimenting the breeders/exhibitors that are surely not operating in the mode of natural selection and survival of the fittest. And, strictly IMO, I'd just as soon not have any more governmental intervention in a lot of areas, including governmental herds of cattle. Talk about a boondogle just waiting to happen!

 

[andybob]

I agree that the adapted breeds have an important role to play in low cost production, with 2000 years selection in the harshest enviroment in southern Africa, we vaccinated only for the diseases that cannot be resisted by the immune system(Anthrax,Blackquarter etc) but not for the tick bourne diseases;Anaplasmosis, babesiasis, heartwater, etc. "Imported "animals needed to be Vaccinated against these so it made sense to cross exotics onto the low maintenance to supply the cattle required by the market at the lowest possible costs. Our cattle were also able to thrive with less nutrition, calved without assistance and have exeptional heat resistance so it made little sense to support higher cost cows, when all that is needed are the exotic bulls to give results at low cost.

 

[LonghornRanch]

Arnold Ziffle, I am not advocate anying, this is a "what if post". And yes, I was replying to Running Arrow Bill comments about modern Longhorn breeders. Sorry you got confused.

But you bring up a good point, is human managment or natural selection better for genetics?

 

[jcarkie]

one thing we do is help out weak animals to survive, because it is more economical. and then use them to breed which passes on the weaker gene. my bull produces calves that are vigorous and hardy, probably the best i have seen they are up and going in minutes. i have seen some that take forever to get up and nurse.

 

[Susie David]

OK..now my two bits worth...
Natural selection is great, unfortunately man has stepped in and altered the resistance to disease that nature sought to balance. Natural immunity has been reduced. I really get a kick out of the folks with a needle and syringe full of LA-200 loading up the animals every time they cough or get a runny nose or because they look sick...no thermometer, no symptoms, just think that they are not feeling well. MERSA folks...we're growing super bugs resistant to the meds we've been feeding them.
Yeah, I vaccinate and use antibiotics but not without knowing that the animal really needs them. New arrivals go to the isolation pen for a few weeks not just load then up and let them go.
That's my piece, said and done. We have made the world now we have to live with it...or change it. Chirchill said that change is good as long as it is in the right direction.
DMc

 

[jp]

I'll play what if. What if you have a small closed herd,no other cattle near your boundry, and the only new additions to your herd is a virgin bull just often enough not to inbreed and you select them from small closed herds.Could it be possible to keep a healthy herd without vaccinations?

 

[Victoria]

If cows had developed such a good tolerance against diesease why were vaccinations ever given to begin with? Even if the cows did get stronger in 100 years I think you would still have more deaths than by vaccinating which I think is why they started to begin with but I could be wrong.

I do think that some people use far too much medication though. As was already mentioned we are creating stronger bugs by overdosing and/or giving drugs when not needed. Same thing is happening with humans. We vaccinate for only what is needed and rarely give any other drugs.

 

[Beefy]

Would PETA be for or against this?

 

[dun]

But you bring up a good point, is human managment or natural selection better for genetics?

Natural selection would probably be better for survival genetics, but if it creates an animal with all horns, hide and no meat what's the point? I suppose if it was done that way some wise guy would introduce an actual beef breed, like Herefords, to make them eatable.

dun

 

[bullred]

It makes sense that natural selection would make for hardier cattle, eventually. But speaking as someone who eats West African Zebu six months out of the year, I can tell you that hardy don't equal tasty or tender!

 

[aplusmnt]

I doubt the government would want to do this, they usually tend to go the other way. Drug companies pay contributions to campaigns, they are more apt to promote us using more drugs.

I am not much on human vaccinations, such as flu shots. I personally think you are subjecting yourself to much more harm than good.

I have wondered just how much vaccinations on cattle is really necessary and how much is hype to get us to spend money?

 

[LonghornRanch]

Would PETA be for or against this?

People Eating Tasty Animals?

 

[Victoria]

Beefy,
I am certain PETA does not want us giving our cattle vaccinations - the shots cause them pain remember? :roll:

 

[andybob]

It makes sense that natural selection would make for hardier cattle, eventually. But speaking as someone who eats West African Zebu six months out of the year, I can tell you that hardy don't equal tasty or tender!

I can't agree Bullred-Tuli are the hardiest breed you will find, with beef quality equal to Angus, try some sometime!
Victoria,some diseases are too virulent for cattle to develop an immunity to before it kills them; Anthrax and Blackquarter for example. So we need vaccines for these. Introducing resistant cattle into an area with a different strain of say Anaplasmosis, the new cattle need to be vaccinated for that strain.Thereafter, as long as there is a challenge, they will remain resistant, and pass resistance onto their calves via colostrum.

 

[SimmAngus]

I have two neighbors who have opted to stop doing spring and fall shots because of the high expence. They both feel the loss of one or two calves is less than the drug cost. I don't personally agree, but that is their view. I'm betting 100 years from now their herd wont be any hardier than mine, but in 100 years I wont give a d***!

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

It never ceases to amaze me when people speak of the "high cost" of vaccinations! We probably spend less than $25 a year for each Animal Unit for ALL of their annual vaccinations plus twice yearly de-worming via injection. One or more sick or dead animals can easily equal dozens of cattle properly vaccinated and de-wormed. Or, the many $$ spent on ONE sick animal for treatment (with or without Vet charges).

Guess the same mentality is like the rancher that won't spend at least $25 to get a female bred (e.g., $250 bull rental to service 10 to 20 females).

Git-R-Done! (The right way...)

;-)