National Identification System (CCIA)

[IluvABbeef]

Recently had a discussion about the CCIA RFID system in Alberta and the rest of Canada, and a question got me thinking to ask the same on here, to you folks south of the border.

Why do you folks in the USA do not have a mandatory national traceability system like Canada is getting underway and Australia already has in place?

This traceability program also known as the CCIA, as you must well know by now, in Canada, all was created by the single case of BSE in a region of Alberta that is close to where I call home, and is about to be made mandatory on new years day next coming year (2009) with the hope of completing the program by 2010. Now, since the cow with the fatal nervous disorder was traced to come from the states, and you folks also had another few cases down there, which were (I think...) linked to cattle coming from Canada...now correct me if I'm wrong about that... and yet I've never heard anything of you folks doing your part in working toward creating a program for national traceability tagging system. Again, Why? I've heard of the "optional" system that some states have put in place, but that's about it.

I don't want this topic to get too political to get locked down, but my inquiring mind needs to know...about your system of traceability and cattle identification system.

 

[Aaron]

Maybe because they have the balls to stand up and fight against it, while Canuck producers did not. There was a bunch of years there were it was an expense, with no benefit for the average producer. It's just starting to get to the point where you might actually get paid for it....but that might be screwed again with Alberta's mandatory age verification plans, which other provinces will eventually follow, making identifying and verification again a burden on producers and nothing more. :cowboy:

 

[Brandonm22]

Recently had a discussion about the CCIA RFID system in Alberta and the rest of Canada, and a question got me thinking to ask the same on here, to you folks south of the border.

Why do you folks in the USA do not have a mandatory national traceability system like Canada is getting underway and Australia already has in place?

This traceability program also known as the CCIA, as you must well know by now, in Canada, all was created by the single case of BSE in a region of Alberta that is close to where I call home, and is about to be made mandatory on new years day next coming year (2009) with the hope of completing the program by 2010. Now, since the cow with the fatal nervous disorder was traced to come from the states, and you folks also had another few cases down there, which were (I think...) linked to cattle coming from Canada...now correct me if I'm wrong about that... and yet I've never heard anything of you folks doing your part in working toward creating a program for national traceability tagging system. Again, Why? I've heard of the "optional" system that some states have put in place, but that's about it.

I don't want this topic to get too political to get locked down, but my inquiring mind needs to know...about your system of traceability and cattle identification system.

A lot of people down here believe (rightly or wrongly) that the government has no business knowing how many cows a person owns, where I am going, who I was with, whether or not I have a gun, what Church I attend (or not), how much money I have in the bank (or under a mattress), what I said on the telephone, what I watch on TV, how much I weigh, etc. If a producer WANTS to enroll his cattle in some sort of age and source I.D. program that certainly is his or her right to do so. Now telling everybody that they have to do it....or else. That might be stretching it a little bit.

On the negative side, we had a case of BSE about 60 miles+/- from where I live. Guy had a Santa Gertrudis cow that showed symptoms a few years after he bought her at a stockyard. Vet correctly identified it as BSE. State verified it. None of the other animals on the farm tested positive though her heifer calf was sent to a research lab for further study. Because we have virtually no tracability, nobody ever figured out where that cow came from before she showed up at that sale. Is she an Alabama bred Gert cow? Did she come out of Texas? Are there more like her somewhere? Nobody has the slightest idea.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

There is no question about this subject - It is EXTREMELY controversial. Much of the strong feelings and opinions regarding Universal Identification methods and it's being made MANDATORY for everybody stems from our (The citizens of the United States of America) SOLID AND DOGMATIC INSISTENCE on retaining our FREEDOMS! For citizens of other countries who do NOT enjoy those senses of what FREEDOM really means, it is hard or impossible to explain. It is hard, and sometimes impossible, to explain those philosophies to our own citizens. We are experiencing that almost unbelievable phenomenon right this very period in time as we struggle through this Presidential Election - attempting to differentiate what is fact and what is NOT fact in the debates between the candidates. The emotional sensations that dedicated and patriotic American Citizens have toward retaining and preserving those Freedoms are more GUT WRENCHING than most citizens of other countries can understand!

Because the population of the United States continues to increase, and with that increase comes more complicated problems involving those Freedoms - those of us who fought for our sovereignty and unique orientation and role in the World guard our Rights and Freedoms with an almost vicious and savage tenacity! Anything which tends to arouse our ire in seeming to threaten those freedoms is met with an almost vicious and savage tenacity, and instant retaliatory objections.

Thus we are faced in this discussion with a possibility which Brandonm22 described: abridging our freedoms. It may be difficult to put this philosophy in words which other nations can understand - but, suffice it to say, WE, THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, GUARD/b] our unique and special position in the World with a tenacious resolution which is unmatched anywhere else.

We don't like or appreciate being told that we HAVE TO DO such and such, or that we WILL do something, whether we like it - or NOT! Not even if it is in our best interests - {according to - somebody?!}

We are a proud and stiff-necked people, and justifiably! (or at least we used to be when I was a young man!)

Perhaps this will help you understand why we sometimes seem reluctant to accept something that seems sensible and straightforward to others - but not to US.

DOC HARRIS

 

[George Monk]

A very humble thank you Doc and Brandonm22. You have expressed my feelings exactly.
George

 

[wstevenl]

Thanks Doc!

Yes, the cattle I own the guns I own, and everything else is my business and I beleive that the Federal and State governments have no right to tell me what to do with them nor demand to know what I have where it came from and where it's going. We've already lost the right to butcher and sell meat (except chicken) without big brother looking over our shoulder.
Steven
www.nonias.org

 

[IluvABbeef]

It doesn't surprise me that I got the replies against this age verification system like I did. But I see why Canada needed it, and I think you do too: it's a better way of getting our cattle to go across the border since that's where most of the $$$$ Alberta gets is from exporting cattle to the states. If we didn't get this under place, I think the border would still be closed to Canadian cattle, wouldn't it?

Aaron, there was also a group in the states that fought with the government to keep the border to Canadian cattle closed because it imposed on their rights to sell home-grown cattle to slaughter plants or something like that. A lot of producers up around here are like that too, they say the same as you did. And yet they somehow get us cattle producers to fill out census forms every few years for stats on how many cattle are in which province, et cetera et cetera. Does that also apply with the USA? It wouldn't surprise me if it does. (Not saying I'm supporting the gov't here, just playing the devil's advocate). So somehow the gov't still knows about our production records and other things...

Funny thing is, there was one producer that had the RFID system to be done on his herd of sheep, and he said that it actually helped him in making better production records and gain more profit because he was better aware of what animals' production status were, boughten or home-grown...something to that effect...

You bet Doc, this is a very controversial topic. :cowboy:

 

[RD-Sam]

Thanks Doc!

Yes, the cattle I own the guns I own, and everything else is my business and I beleive that the Federal and State governments have no right to tell me what to do with them nor demand to know what I have where it came from and where it's going. We've already lost the right to butcher and sell meat (except chicken) without big brother looking over our shoulder.
Steven
http://www.nonias.org

The problem is that you have people in this country that will do anything and everything for a buck! When you put the general public in danger with the food supply, something needs to be done, that means a new law to fix the problem. Thank the criminal element for the new law. The same reason they want to take your right away to own guns, the criminal element is the problem, so they want to make everybody suffer because of the few bad.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

It doesn't surprise me that I got the replies against this age verification system like I did. But I see why Canada needed it, and I think you do too: it's a better way of getting our cattle to go across the border since that's where most of the $$$$ Alberta gets is from exporting cattle to the states. If we didn't get this under place, I think the border would still be closed to Canadian cattle, wouldn't it?

Aaron, there was also a group in the states that fought with the government to keep the border to Canadian cattle closed because it imposed on their rights to sell home-grown cattle to slaughter plants or something like that. A lot of producers up around here are like that too, they say the same as you did. And yet they somehow get us cattle producers to fill out census forms every few years for stats on how many cattle are in which province, et cetera et cetera. Does that also apply with the USA? It wouldn't surprise me if it does. (Not saying I'm supporting the gov't here, just playing the devil's advocate). So somehow the gov't still knows about our production records and other things...

Funny thing is, there was one producer that had the RFID system to be done on his herd of sheep, and he said that it actually helped him in making better production records and gain more profit because he was better aware of what animals' production status were, boughten or home-grown...something to that effect...

You bet Doc, this is a very controversial topic. :cowboy:

IluvABbeef-

When I responded to your original thread, I was directing my remarks in the vein of explaining the overall general attitude of the citizens of the U.S. toward "Governmental Control" of our lives in almost every aspect. I continue to have, and express, the same point of view with respect to genuflection and servility to the "authorities" who, by virtue of Laws, both Civil and Natural, "goes against the grain", so to speak.

HOWEVER, there must be in place in a civil society, certain rules and laws and acts of conduct to establish order in a citizenry, and that is the justification and reason for our Constitution of the United States. Having said that, I hasten to explain that NONE of the governed citizens agree or approve of ALL of the Laws and Rules by which we are obligated to follow and by which we live and have our beings. Here are a few of the millions of Laws of which we are obligated to recognize and obey, or suffer some degree of retribution and penalty: Automobile traffic laws, Traffic lights, stop signs, Speed Limits, Rights of Way, the mandatory wearing of seat belts (THIS is one law that really rags my predilection and particular choice, in SPITE of my knowing it is desirable and for my own good. But I still HATE it.), and I could go on interminably - which I won't!

But my point is, there is no argument but what it is a mandate and requirement that in order for human beings to live in an orderly World, certain Laws and Rules are necessary to avoid tyranny and chaos, and there are shades of intensities of those Laws which make for disagreements, arguments and differences of opinions. I STILL concur and agree with those of the Forum members who expressed their displeasure and opposition to the various Identification Systems being used and proposed World wide, - - - BUT, In My Opinion, it is merely a matter of time until Electronic or Physical Identification WILL be the order of the day, and if a beef producer bows his neck and rebels, he will be "Tilting at Windmills" just like Don Quixote - with the same useless results! Therefore, it is as some wise philosopher once said, "When Rape is inevitable - relax and enjoy it!" You don't have to approve of it, or like it, but the alternative is more disagreeable than the fact itself.

If you are confronted by a MOUNTAIN of PROBLEMS in front of you, and you can't seem to move it, or go around it, or over it, or tunnel through it, - - stay on this side and figure out an alternative action to benefit your life rather than aggravate the consequences thereof. I feel this way about the ID factor in this discussion. The idea of having to be compelled to submit to the demands of the requirements in order to continue our business protocols may be repugnant, however the benefits resulting from those impositions may prove to be a real aid in the operation of your business. You may be able to realize where you can improve upon your management technics, recognize certain individuals in your herd which should be culled, and as a result help you in making more intelligent decisions in sire selections to increase profitability.

There is always SOME good in everything!

Sometimes, it just takes some thought, and concentrating on the OTHER side of the plate to see the Ice Cream instead of the Castor Oil!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aaron]

It doesn't surprise me that I got the replies against this age verification system like I did. But I see why Canada needed it, and I think you do too: it's a better way of getting our cattle to go across the border since that's where most of the $$$$ Alberta gets is from exporting cattle to the states. If we didn't get this under place, I think the border would still be closed to Canadian cattle, wouldn't it?

Aaron, there was also a group in the states that fought with the government to keep the border to Canadian cattle closed because it imposed on their rights to sell home-grown cattle to slaughter plants or something like that. A lot of producers up around here are like that too, they say the same as you did. And yet they somehow get us cattle producers to fill out census forms every few years for stats on how many cattle are in which province, et cetera et cetera. Does that also apply with the USA? It wouldn't surprise me if it does. (Not saying I'm supporting the gov't here, just playing the devil's advocate). So somehow the gov't still knows about our production records and other things...

Funny thing is, there was one producer that had the RFID system to be done on his herd of sheep, and he said that it actually helped him in making better production records and gain more profit because he was better aware of what animals' production status were, boughten or home-grown...something to that effect...

You bet Doc, this is a very controversial topic. :cowboy:

I am thinking pre-BSE Karin. When did we start the CCIA BS? 1999? A lot of years there where there was no benefit to tagging. None. It was a straight-out cost, sold under the belief that producers would get paid for it. Opening the borders, yes it helped. But notice that cattle were still being branded to cross the border? Age verification was a good idea. But only now are we starting to get paid for it, primarily for cull cattle. I mean this across the entire country, not just the West. Still a lot of barns in Canada where age-verified cattle are not fetching a premium, based on the fact. I tested the whole age verification thing a couple years ago when it first started, but I never saw a premium for it, none of the sale cattle I saw sold got a premium for it.

Census is a whole other ball game. I don't even exist. Paperwork seems to mysteriously 'lose' itself. :cowboy:

 

[IluvABbeef]

Alright, thanks for the responses everyone. I understand now.

 

[Sage]

I hope by now all producers realize that as of Oct 1 2009 Country of origin labeling(COOL) has passed and is in effect in the US. This does not open up your cattle to the export(Japan) buyers, they must be age and sourse verified, but it should start a US produced beef label on the retail product for someone to hike the price on and make a little extra. Sure would be nice if it trickled down to the cow calf producers. Age and soure is not mandatory in the US, if it will be time will tell.

 

[dun]

Age and soure is not mandatory in the US, if it will be time will tell.

Hope it never becomes mandatory. It means a few extra pennies in my pocket when we sell our calves that are.

 

[apical meristem]

Sage wrote:
Age and soure is not mandatory in the US, if it will be time will tell.

Hope it never becomes mandatory. It means a few extra pennies in my pocket when we sell our calves that are.

Dun, how and where do you market your source and age verified calves? The preconditioned sales I know of will sell them that way if you can make pot loads, but they haven't started doing that on a regular basis. What kind of paperwork do you provide for age verification? Do you use video sales? Thanks.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Sage wrote:
Age and soure is not mandatory in the US, if it will be time will tell.

Hope it never becomes mandatory. It means a few extra pennies in my pocket when we sell our calves that are.

Dun, how and where do you market your source and age verified calves? The preconditioned sales I know of will sell them that way if you can make pot loads, but they haven't started doing that on a regular basis. What kind of paperwork do you provide for age verification? Do you use video sales? Thanks.

Apical,I age and source verify and sell by the pot loads but here in Mo there is a few sale barns that have special pre vac and source and age verified sales as far as paper work mostly just documentation on how you identify individual calves and how you document your birthdates I give them a copy of my tally book on the first calf and last calves to document my start and finish dates of calving I use IMI global as my age and source verifying agent the cost is $225 for each set of cattle I verify

 

[dun]

Sage wrote:
Age and soure is not mandatory in the US, if it will be time will tell.

Hope it never becomes mandatory. It means a few extra pennies in my pocket when we sell our calves that are.

Dun, how and where do you market your source and age verified calves? The preconditioned sales I know of will sell them that way if you can make pot loads, but they haven't started doing that on a regular basis. What kind of paperwork do you provide for age verification? Do you use video sales? Thanks.

Apical,I age and source verify and sell by the pot loads but here in Mo there is a few sale barns that have special pre vac and source and age verified sales as far as paper work mostly just documentation on how you identify individual calves and how you document your birthdates I give them a copy of my tally book on the first calf and last calves to document my start and finish dates of calving I use IMI global as my age and source verifying agent the cost is $225 for each set of cattle I verify

We either comingle with some other produceers and sell in potloads or hal them to the special pre-vac/wean-vac sales as AC mentioned. Our claves are age and sourced verified through the state dept of ag and also process verified through Pfizer. We use IMI as our tag source.

 

[Angus Cowman]

dun just wondering where you get you pfizer vaccines I order mine from Dixon Farm Supply in Stigler Oklahoma haven't been able to beat their price so if interested pm me and I can give you their info

 

[Brandonm22]

The vet on on Leachman's No Better Bull show Thursday said that the feedlots were not seeing ANY noticable advantage to the preconditioned calves over the sale barns calves. His theory is that people are mishandling the Modified Live Virus vaccines. If you are going to do all that work, get a styrofoam chest to keep your vaccines out of the sun, don't mix up the vaccines ahead of when you need them and try to protect the vaccines from extreme weather.

 

[dun]

dun just wondering where you get you pfizer vaccines I order mine from Dixon Farm Supply in Stigler Oklahoma haven't been able to beat their price so if interested pm me and I can give you their info

I get them from the vet. Based on how much we would have tho throw out from a bottle, it's cheaper for us. But we're sneaky sort of. He eoes all the shots while I work the cows, awfully cheap labor for a 10 buck farm call.

 

[Angus Cowman]

$10.00 farm call how far will he travel mine charges 35 plus mileage so a farm visit is usually $80 bucks don't call unless I need him I really like the vet but sometimes I think his prices don't add up when we ultrasound charges $80 pr hr plus I still get mileage and farm call charges