Murray Grey Herd Bull

[Backbone Ranch]

This will be one of our primary Murray Grey herd sires, OK Buford. We purchased him on November 1st. He will be the sire of 10 calves in the 2016 spring calf crop and the sire of a handful of fall calves out of some first calf heifers. He is a 3 1/2 year old and a paternal half brother to our other 3 1/2 year old bull. Buford is a frame score 3, and weighs 1,620 lbs. I am really eager to see how he can add to our breeding program.

 

[Lazy M]

Always heard old timers say that curly haired bulls sire the best calves. Nice bull.

 

[OK Jeanne]

I would like to see his dam (OK Buelah) flushed to Ballee Thumbs Up......

 

[WalnutCrest]

Nice; thick and densely made.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Nice; thick and densely made.

:nod:

 

[Backbone Ranch]

Thank you for all of the feedback and it is great to hear from you OK Jeanne! We are not yet in the position to flush any of our females yet, but Buelah will definitely be in our AI group next spring. We are debating whether to AI her to Ballee Thumbs Up or Monterey Marshall. Below are photos of Buelah, Ballee Thumbs Up, and Monterey Marshall.
OK Buelah- Buelah is a 7 1/2 year old cow who has produced a replacement quality calf every year but one. Her first calf made an excellent steer.

Ballee Thumbs Up- He is a new Zealand bull born in 1998. He scored 9 out of 10 stars on the Igenity tenderness test. From what I have seen, his progeny have good muscling, a lot of capacity, and good hindquarters.

Monterey Marshall- He is an Australian bull born in 1989. He scored a perfect 10 on the Igenity tenderness test. We had a bull calf sired by him this year; he was the best of the entire calf crop.

 

[OK Jeanne]

Hard to choose between those two bulls. I know Thumbs Up was tested for the double-muscle gene; and did not have it.
I don't know if M.Marshall was tested for it; many of the older bulls were not checked for that.....how tall was were both
of them??

 

[Backbone Ranch]

We have sent in straws on both bulls to be tested for both A-manno and myostatin; they were negative for both traits. One drawback to using some of the older sires is the lack of information on them... Many times, I have to look for retired Murray Grey breeders who may have a box with old publications in it to find information on an old bull. I do not have the frame scores on either Monterey Marshall or Ballee Thumbs Up. I can tell you though that our Monterey Marshall bull calf is not much bigger, if at all, in frame than our calves sired by Tony and Cadella Park Golden Boy.

 

[OK Jeanne]

Gearld Fry picked out Thumbs Up in New Zealand, to be collected and imported in the USA. I cannot imagine him picking a bull over 4-5 frame. Your Australian contacts can likely tell you the frame on M.Marshall. Monterey is/was a well-known stud...I believe in
western australia.

 

[KNERSIE]

Don't see this bull as an upgrade on your current bull. Lacks width in chest floor and spring of rib through heart girth. Not a bad bull, but not a herdsire in my opinion.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

Don't see this bull as an upgrade on your current bull. Lacks width in chest floor and spring of rib through heart girth. Not a bad bull, but not a herdsire in my opinion.

Our other bull is currently being collected at a breeding center in Elgin, TX and will be for several more months. We will be breeding Buford to our heifers this fall and he will be breeding about a dozen females and will be clean up for our AI cows this summer. Buford comes from a line of cows with great udders, large ribeye areas, and good feet, and his progeny have high tenderness scores. I think that his daughters bred to Tony, our other herdsire, would be a good breeding. Tony has a great disposition, high tenderness scores, a lot of capacity, and he stamps his females with consistency. Tony's bull calves are not as consistent as his heifers, but the good bulls that he sires are really good. From what I have seen at the ranch where we purchased Buford, Buford is more of an all-rounder, producing quality bull and heifer calves. Below is a photo of one of Buford's daughters at 17 months of age.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Don't see this bull as an upgrade on your current bull. Lacks width in chest floor and spring of rib through heart girth. Not a bad bull, but not a herdsire in my opinion.

KNERSIE-

You are 100% correct on analyzing this bull! He stands 'WAY to close with his front legs, which anatomically dictates that his progeny will be restricted in the heart girth, and lack capacity. That is NOT a quality to breed for in beef cattle! He also has a weak topline. Would any breeder select for low capacity, pinched heart girth and weak top line for his breeding females?? Not in my book!

"Multiple Trait Selection" is what builds optimal beef genetics - not SINGLE trait choices.

DOC HARRIS

 

[cotton1]

Backbone-I see where you got this bull to breed a group of heifers. The shoulders on this bull may not be the best by a text book standard for beef, but has been my experience that this type of bull will produce easy calving on heifers. A live calf is real critical to a bottom line. For a cow to mature and become a great mama cow, she has to start somewhere. The easier that start, the better! Nothing worse than loosing a heifer and calf at calving time. I'm sure you will be able to make the decision about what you cull, and what you keep in your herd. Thats a whole other topic. I also think its great that you are considering the beef quality in your breeding decision! To many that I see are looking at EPDs for growth, maybe calving, and thats it.So far, I have enjoyed the pictures of your cattle, thanks for sharing.

 

[JWBrahman]

Heifers with a pinched heart girth are notorious for having a hard time calving.

The leg structure should resemble a well made table. Four strong legs at a 90 degree angle to the ground when viewed directly from the front and back. There are dozens of PDF files on the internet showing the correct skeletal structure for cattle.

Backbone should think seriously about introducing structural deformities in exchange for "taste". Not an equitable trade for a registered seedstock operation.

 

[KNERSIE]

The daughter you've posted had the same fault her sire has. She has plenty of good qualities as well, but she is dry on the chine and just behind the chine. She won't be as easy keeper as some of the other cows you've posted. She'll very likely be a great milker, but that comes at a price, too.

Enough of that I've given my opinion, won't clutter this thread any further.

 

[Backbone Ranch]

I really appreciate your honest opinions Doc, Knersie, Cotton1, and JWBrahman. I am always willing to learn from those who have been in the business longer than I have. Our long-term goals are to produce cattle that are structurally sound, efficient on grass, moderately framed with a lot of width and capacity, and tender beef on grass. We want to emphasize fertility, docility, and quality of each individual as well. Once again, I want to thank you for your honesty.

Knersie- We still have our other herdsire, Tony, and he will be seeing a lot of use in the coming years with us. He has improved the quality of our calf crop tremendously, both in phenotype and in beef quality. He is currently being collected; we want to preserve his genetics so that we can use them whenever we feel that it is necessary. We have a handful of domestic and two large international orders to fill as well. I am not sure if he will be back for the 2016 spring/summer breeding season. Just for comparison, I have put a photo of Tony below. He is pictured at 3 years of age, while breeding a little over 20 cows, during the summer.

 

[KNERSIE]

Still a lot more bull there

 

[ANAZAZI]

Backbone-I see where you got this bull to breed a group of heifers. The shoulders on this bull may not be the best by a text book standard for beef, but has been my experience that this type of bull will produce easy calving on heifers. A live calf is real critical to a bottom line. For a cow to mature and become a great mama cow, she has to start somewhere. The easier that start, the better! Nothing worse than loosing a heifer and calf at calving time. I'm sure you will be able to make the decision about what you cull, and what you keep in your herd. Thats a whole other topic. I also think its great that you are considering the beef quality in your breeding decision! To many that I see are looking at EPDs for growth, maybe calving, and thats it.So far, I have enjoyed the pictures of your cattle, thanks for sharing.

I disagree. One cannot see in a grown bull if he sires easy coming calves or not. Exessive bone in a bull gives harder calving, but aside from that, nothing.

The way to find out what type of calves a bull sires is to look at his calves, his newborn siblings and other closelyrelated cattle, as newborn.

I will not help to use emasclated bulls or pinched bulls or whatever, a smooth and slender calf can grow into a blocky bull - it is the norm at my place that they do.

On giving heifers an easy start, I am all for it.

 

[KNERSIE]

Backbone-I see where you got this bull to breed a group of heifers. The shoulders on this bull may not be the best by a text book standard for beef, but has been my experience that this type of bull will produce easy calving on heifers. A live calf is real critical to a bottom line. For a cow to mature and become a great mama cow, she has to start somewhere. The easier that start, the better! Nothing worse than loosing a heifer and calf at calving time. I'm sure you will be able to make the decision about what you cull, and what you keep in your herd. Thats a whole other topic. I also think its great that you are considering the beef quality in your breeding decision! To many that I see are looking at EPDs for growth, maybe calving, and thats it.So far, I have enjoyed the pictures of your cattle, thanks for sharing.

I disagree. One cannot see in a grown bull if he sires easy coming calves or not. Exessive bone in a bull gives harder calving, but aside from that, nothing.

The way to find out what type of calves a bull sires is to look at his calves, his newborn siblings and other closelyrelated cattle, as newborn.

I will not help to use emasclated bulls or pinched bulls or whatever, a smooth and slender calf can grow into a blocky bull - it is the norm at my place that they do.

On giving heifers an easy start, I am all for it.

Exactly!

 

[cotton1]

I am sorry my post offended so many. I stand by it though. As I stated, my opinions are based on my personal experiences. I will agree to disagree that an individual can not make a visual examination of a breeding bull and form an opinion of what his offspring will be like. In this very case, we were afforded pictures of OK Buford. The popular judgment brought on this bull was that he is to tight in the heart girth and thus his daughters will have calving difficulty, and that his offspring will have the same problems as their sire. Well, guess what, that is exactly what you said can not be done. You made a visual interpretation of Buford, just as you say can not be done. Contradiction forms a poor argument at best.

I will agree that a smooth shouldered calf can come easy to a heifer and grow in to a nice bull. My experience has not been that a wide chested/shouldered bull as mentioned with 90 degree table legs will beget a calf that is narrow/smooth shouldered with less bone. I have had better results with bulls made up like Buford on heifers here. I understand that you all could have had different experiences. Seems to me the old saying "like begets like" is a double edge sword in this instance. Now, the resulting calves of Buford are a whole different ball game. The heifers are daughters of Tony as I understand. Their first calf by Buford may be a keeper or a cull, but that calf will not change the mama cow, or reduce the 50% influence she has on the calf by Buford. There are so many genetic variants in a single bull bred to a single dam that duplication is almost not possible. Many of the calves may wind up being culled, but some may be just fine, remembering the dam has genetic influence on the offspring.If the kept heifers from the Buford /Tony mating are bred back to Tony, Buford may leave some positive influence in Backbones herd. I really don't think the post was designed to garner breeding advice or even approval of Buford as much as just to share their new purchase in which they must have been pleased already. OK Buford may have been produced by another contributor of this site, who knows. If so I am sure they appreciated the bashing received. Will the genes of Buford dominate the genes of the cows he is bred to? Can a breeder take a look at a bull and determine dominate and recessive genetics? I will stand by my opinions offered because of my experiences as stated. I am not opposed to learning though. The previous two questions are meant in a manner in which I would like you to answer them for this topic and the sake of learning. They are intended as serious questions,and I hope you will take them as such, and answer.