Market Outlook

[Caustic Burno]

Like I said in an earlier post: It took me 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the 105 bushels of corn an acre on our farm last year. Ethanol yields around two gallons a bushel.

How many gallons did it take to produce the fertilizer you used, move the product to market or refine the product? Like CB; I've got to go with the refinning expert!

Yes, we've got to find another means of enery but that is awhile off. In the meantime we need to get rid of the tree huggers and drill offshore in California, Florida and in the Alaskan Artic. EPA needs to take a break and let diesel engines return to the efficiency they used to have and allow the building of more refineries. Then we need an alternative energy program simliar to the "Manhatten Project". Unfortunately, all of our politicians have their heads buried in the sand and can't get past the next election. We need to forget about all the rules and just "git 'er done!".

Norris

Norriscathy
First of all transporting the product has nothing to do with the production of the product I hate to say your gas doesn't magically appear in the tank below your gas station a fuel tansport delivered it there. The same way they will deliver the ethanol so please use a different approach. As far as needing to be refined I'm uncertain what you meen Ethanol has a denaturant added at the plant to make it undrinkable if thats what you meen by refined the denature is just regular gasoline.
The fertilizer is called hog sh*t it takes 1.25 gallons of diesel fuel per acre to apply it. The rest of the year our diesel use has averaged 9.7 gallons per acre to produce the corn and transport it to the plant. From that acre we averaged 173 bushels of corn per acre for the last 17 years. 173 bushels of corn equals 484 gallons of ethanol. 12.12 gallons of diesel fuel to produce 484 gallons of ethanol you do the math.


Campground this is where you can put some of your knowledge to work. How much energy is used in only the production of the ethanol from the time the corn gets to the plant until it leaves as useable fuel. You claim to know so much about ethanol beinf a waste so give me the exact figures. I for one will never ever believe the ethanol plant will use 300 gallons of tradional fuel to produce those 484 gallons of ethanol. But hey your the energy expert as you and caustic claim.


Caustic I have no "creditials" in the refining buisness I will admit that. I'm quite certain your friend Campground has no creditials in the production of No 2 yellow corn but yet he has all the answers when it comes to the amount of energy used in corn production. I will gladly listen to his expertise about refining but he needs to listen to an expert in corn production.
Amazing what people can learn if they only listen. I'm not sure where your from but campground and norris are from Texas we used to buy cattle at Sulphur Springs and Stephensville I never saw a decent looking corn crop in Texas when I picked up those cattle. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Texas I've just never seen it. Texas is big. But maybe your vision of a cornfield and mine are so very different that you can'tunderstand it is possible that it works to turn corn into ethanol But it does.

Just as I thought you passed gas once so you have this energy thing down. You are just thinking about that government welfare I mean subsidy.
Camp is telling us we need to reduce oil and your concern is corn which you grow increases it I totally see the validity of your arguement.

 

[cmjust0]

At the risk of putting this thread back on topic :lol: does anybody else wanna add their $.02 on the future of the CATTLE market?

 

[somn]

Caustic until you can come up with any real figures regarding this issue don't reply. You obviously no nothing about the issue I've given you the figures on corn production and I would like to here from Campground about his figures considering ethanol production you can only babble more nonsense. Atleast he may have some numbers we could discuss.

 

[norriscathy]

Don't really want to start a fuss here, but would really like some valid numbers on ethanol production from corn. WB claims he can produce 1 acre of corn with 1.25 gallons of diesel while Somn says it takes him almost 11 gallons not counting fertilizer. I have some experience row crop farming; granted it was soybeans and not corn, and Somn sounds closer to reality; but would like to see some valid, unemotional numbers on the cost of ethanol production.

Norris

PS Somn there are some tremendous row crop farms in Texas. Guess you'ver never head of the Red River Valley or the Texas High Plains or the south Texas "Valley".

 

[Campground Cattle]

Somn you are obviously driven by the economic benefit corn brings to your family.
I have no ax to grind as I am at retirement and there is nothing the industry I worked in can do to harm me finacially.
I guided all my children away from an industry that the average workers life is ten years shorter from leukemia's, cancer and Alzheimer related deaths. An industry where you are in more danger of dying everyday than your drive to work.

There is a lot more to ethanol cost than yours to grow it. You have to disc it, plant it, fertilize it, harvest it, transport it to an ethanol refinery to process it, transport it again by rail, barge or truck which are more costly than pipelines, store it in separate storage facilities, blend it, transport it again to the customer.
All we are doing with ethanol is replacing MTBE another alcohol required by the government with ethanol which is more costly to produce.

You don't get the point any thing that makes us more oil dependent is bad we need to go to other energy sources period. If ethanol was the answer I would be jumping up and down. Instead of spending 38 billion in subsidies we should have been building nuclear, solar, hydra electric sources. We should have spent billions on developing alternate fuel source that reduce our dependence.

You can believe what you want you can't get around physics your product does not produce as many Btu's and take's more Btu's to produce, that is a loser any way you look at it.
It takes Btu's to move everything in this country.
Fact is fact look up the Btu value of your product ethanol and that of gasoline we lose and so does country.

Best of luck in making a fortune in corn.

 

[somn]

Campground
I guess I must not have made myself clear enough. The energy cost included everything done to produce the corn from seed bed preperation to delivery to the plant. My question to you was how much energy was used after it got to the plant. For you to make such a strong arguement against ethanol I assumed you actually had figures to back up your theory. Your posts always include articles saying how bad it is and how much of a waste ethanol is for energy use. Please instead of articles give me figures how much energy is used after the corn makes it to the plant. I've given you the figures used to grow the corn and get the corn to the plant you give me the figures of energy used after arrival at plant. All I'm asking you for are some figures. You have refining expertise I have corn production expertise I have given you energy usage figures related to my field please give me your figures not more articles written by some guy that neither of us know. Anybody can write articles you and I are the ones involved in this discussion. Without some energy usage figures from you I can only assume you to be less knowledgable in your area of expertise than you lead on to be.

 

[Campground Cattle]

You have a closed mind planting and growing the corn are just part of ethanols cost. It has unique transportation issues and it has to be refined also which is very costly compared to tradtional hydrocarbons in the energy it takes to produce a gallon of fuel.

You can chose to ignore the facts it takes 25,000 btu's of hydrocarbon to produce 120,000 btu's of fuel from the oil field to the gas pump. This has been researched to death by leading scientist and R&D firms you refuse to look at the data. I don't work for Exxon they are not an oil company but an energy company if they could come up a product that is cheaper to produce that had the same quality as the current one they would be building ethanol plants to make ethanol to sell to Joe Consumer or what ever the product is.
You just don't get it there business is selling the most profitable energy they can to make the most money for return to the shareholders. If they could make more money on cotton they would plant cotton.
I am sorry you have trouble in it takes energy to produce energy again the law of physics.
Ethanol from start to finish requires nearly a 100,000 btu's of energy to produce roughly 75,000 btu's from seed to the consumer. Transportation cost are huge to move and store ethanol.

 

[somn]

Campground
Still no figures of energy used by an ethanol plant to produce ethanol. I'm starting to lose faith in you what at first seemed like knowledge on your part is fast eroding. Stop with the btu's we are talking energy used in production of ethanol. I've never argued your btu point it's ethanol we are discussing. Please I ask again for some numbers relating to ethanol plant energy use.

 

[andybob]

I don't know anything about the costs of ethanol production, but during the 15 years of comprehensive sanctions in Rhodesia, ethanol was produced from the sugar not being exported to subsidise the disrupted fuel supplies.
Neccessity forced us to quickly adapt to ethanol blends,vegetable oil for farm diesel vehicles ,and methane gas from manure. There must still be the information from these projects available somewhere.
Alternative cattle feeds such as Carob pods and some of the tree legumes need to be futher reasearched, the main problem in the past has been the harvesting for milling,otherwise long term production costs are minimal, and feed values are high.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Campground
Still no figures of energy used by an ethanol plant to produce ethanol. I'm starting to lose faith in you what at first seemed like knowledge on your part is fast eroding. Stop with the btu's we are talking energy used in production of ethanol. I've never argued your btu point it's ethanol we are discussing. Please I ask again for some numbers relating to ethanol plant energy use.

The numbers are there let me help you convert then you would need roughly a 1.80 in oil to produce a 1.40 worth of fuel in btu value at 71 dollars a barrel for oil.

I stand to make nothing off this as it will only end up costing me more for fuel in retirement. My question as a corn farmer how is your bank account going to be affected?
Nuff Said we know the reply.
You can only say ethanol is the anwser to our problems with a jaudice eye and refuse to ignore the facts of the scientific community.

You will get no arguement out of me we need a new fuel source just one thats efficient.
If you don't think the Exxon's of the world wouldn't mash your little corn farming butt if it was more profitable for them your nutts. Why do you think they are spending millions in hydrogen research they know known oil reserves are going to be in trouble by 2040. They will be selling the most effecient profitable energy there is to the public then. If it was truely a profitable viable solution the government wouldn't have to subsidize it you would be an Exxon employee.
By the way how much did you get in corn subsidies last year?
If you have to take subsides to raise a crop your are no different than the New Orleans welfare receiptant.

 

[somn]

Still no figures just like I suspected you don't have any you just want to run down any other meens of energy. I will give you credit you will stand behind what you have made a living off of. That is honorable most people would have givin up when it was made apparent they had no figures to back up what they are talking about. As far as subsidies I figured sooner or later this argument would go there usually when people realize they have nothing more to say they will find something else to complain about. And sir that you have just done. Comparing farm subsidies to people that lost everything they owned to a hurricane shows how ignorant you are. Those people need help. Thats right corn subsidies we are assured a certain price per bushel by the goverment. It's called Risk Management Assurance We pay them for a bottom line regardless if we use it that year or not.

When you have actual figures to back up your ethanol plant energy use claim send them my way.

 

[Capt Call]

Got to jump in here welfare is welfare and you are on it.
I have read this thread and I can see plenty of numbers on why corn fuel is not good for me.
I liked the question you keep dodging how much do you stand to profit from ethanol, why won't you answer that?
I have to side in with Camp on this one looks like he has put out a lot of independent sources and you your opinion.
Thing I find funny is we will talk data from OSU or A&M as factual for our cattle but you don't like Berkley or the others for our fuel. California has been leading they way for cleaner and better fuel for the enviroment for years.

 

[ChrisB]

If you buy groceries made from the crops from which these subsidies are given you aren't paying the actual cost of production. You are also receiving welfare.

Ethanol may not be the answer to our future energy needs but the numbers from these "independent" studies that show how much energy is needed to produce corn are what I find ridiculous.

 

[somn]

Got to jump in here welfare is welfare and you are on it.
I have read this thread and I can see plenty of numbers on why corn fuel is not good for me.
I liked the question you keep dodging how much do you stand to profit from ethanol, why won't you answer that?
I have to side in with Camp on this one looks like he has put out a lot of independent sources and you your opinion.
Thing I find funny is we will talk data from OSU or A&M as factual for our cattle but you don't like Berkley or the others for our fuel. California has been leading they way for cleaner and better fuel for the enviroment for years.

I'm sure glad you can see the numbers that aren't there. He has not come up with a single figure for energy used from the time the corn arrives at the plant thru production. He is the expert as he and his freinds claim but yet not a single figure he just keeps claiming it is bad. And now you make the claim it is bad so let me hear from you how much energy is used in the production of ethanol after the corn arrives at the plant. I haven't been dodging any questions. I have the same thing to gain from ethanol as you do a renewable energy source but you and your Texas freinds want to sell oil. I have nothing more to gain from ethanol. I feed cattle lots of corn to cattle. The corn I before bought from the farmer I will now buy as DDGS from the ethanol plant. The ethanol plant will charge me whatever price they want to for the product. The farmer took whatever he could get for his product so you tell me where do I gain. By the way you must no nothing about RMA or RA (I've heard it called both depending on the company.) It is the same thing as your car insurance we pay a premium for a guaranteed revenue the same way you pay a premium for your car insurance for a new car. We have a crop failure or low cash prices they pay. You wreck your car you get a check for a new one. See more welfare just like you said. It is amazing what one person can twist and turn to make it look like welfare. If collecting on a insurance policy is welfare I'm guessing most of America is guilty of being on welfare. I will continue to wait for some figures from either of you back up your claim. I have presented the corn production energy use figures you need to provide the rest of the figures this is obviously your field of expertise. I've already admitted I know nothing about refining but I was willing to learn you just need to produce figures relevant to ethanol plant production energy useage. Show me the numbers.

 

[W.B.]

Norrriscathy: Reread my earlier posts. I said it takes 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce an acre of corn wtih our average yield of 105 bu/ acre. Get the numbers right and it will improve the validity of your arguement.


Here is how it breaks down for those of you who doubt me.

Planting---- .5 gal/acre
spraying 2 times .25 gal/acre
combining 1 gal/acre
hauling to bin .5 gal/acre



The differences in fuel between N. Central S.D. and other areas of the corn belt will vary quite a bit as our ground has not been tilled in over 6 years and will not need to be tilled in the future. This saves quite a bit of fuel.


For those who believe ethanol is not feasible just keep sticking your head in the sand hell who knows maybe you will find oil.

 

[Capt Call]

What is it you can not understand? the extra btu's needed to produce the fuel? I found the articles very clear.

A person with a third grade education could understand that is a loser.
Also the higher the price of oil the more it cost to produce ethanol.

Thats pretty simple. I get hurt in the back pocket by ethanol from subsidy to fuel prices while your back pocket gets padded.

Lets see we have corn farmers fighting for ethanol
against a retired guy that made his living off energy that is telling us we need an alternate fuel source.
Just not from corn.

Looks like a one sided view point and its yours.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Funny even the DOE doesn't think its a good fuel.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biomass.html

 

[rkm]

What does DOE know or care, they work for Big Oil.

 

[Bucky]

People are also using corn to burn in stoves to heat their homes. I work for a wholesale distributing company and we have had to add corn vent to our inventory due to all the requests for it. It takes a special pipe because the burnt corn sugars and builds up on regular wood burning or pellet pipe. This is in Montana where you can find wood for your stove and air laws are pretty non-existant. It has absoultly no appeal to me.

Anyhow that is my contribution to this thread hi-jack!

 

[norriscathy]

Funny even the DOE doesn't think its a good fuel.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biomass.html

You can't win Camp. You're arguing with a fence post!!!!!!
Norris