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You people will never get it. This is no different than cattle. The feedlot operator doesn't count the cost of the feed that the cow ate in order to produce the calf that he bought when he figures profit. Why do you figure the energy used to produce the corn the ethanol plant purchased. The corn is going to be produced regardless if it is for ethanol or feed that will never change. Corn will be grown in America for eternity. Lets make the ethanol and be done with it. Why is so hard for you to understand that? Corn is going to be produced and we need to use the resources we have instead of continuing to buy from your OPEC buddies. The energy used to produce corn will always be used and that sir seems to be what you have a hard time understanding. Farmers are not going to stop raising corn just because it takes one gallon of traditional fuel to produce 1.6 of ethanol. The corn that before fed cattle now supplies an ethanol plant the makes ethanol that replaces gasoline and also makes the byproducts to continue the feeding of our livestock. So we still have the feed value we had with the corn and we have the ethanol. So I must say the economics are against your silly theory. We produce more for less. You only have to look at where you are from in America to understand why you would continue to argue with simple economics.
Texas = OIL Ethanol = less oil
You being from Texas hate Ethanol
 
somn I believe most of the ethanol now has to be imported.
So this isn't really a boon to corn growers.
 
I am a modern corn grower and my actual fuel used to do all the planting, spraying, combining and hualing last growing season averaged under 2.5 gallons an acre. With my average yield of 105 bu and acre. Yes it takes an addtional amount for the 223 lbs. of 35-18-0 fertilizer but in no way is corn a negative energy source for ethanol. This is old outdated hogwash that has kept our great country from progressing.
 
I don't know anything about corn or ethanol- but I do know the price of cattle is going south--Too much supply for demand with all the imports from Canada, Mexico, Australia, etc...--especially with few export markets reopened...USDA's failure to enact the M-COOL law does not give consumers the option to buy USA product and allows the multinational Packers to import cheap beef and pass it off as a US product- and lower the prices given to US producers.....USDA's total mishandling of the Creekstone situation and the Japanese export fiasco is adding to it.......

Unless something comes up to close off the imports or quickly reopens our export markets--Slaughter cattle will dip down into the $60's before the summer is over-- feeder calves will be at least $10 to $20 off last years prices maybe more if corn and feed prices really shoot up...
 
somn":3ka5t9ys said:
You people will never get it. This is no different than cattle. The feedlot operator doesn't count the cost of the feed that the cow ate in order to produce the calf that he bought when he figures profit. Why do you figure the energy used to produce the corn the ethanol plant purchased. The corn is going to be produced regardless if it is for ethanol or feed that will never change. Corn will be grown in America for eternity. Lets make the ethanol and be done with it. Why is so hard for you to understand that? Corn is going to be produced and we need to use the resources we have instead of continuing to buy from your OPEC buddies. The energy used to produce corn will always be used and that sir seems to be what you have a hard time understanding. Farmers are not going to stop raising corn just because it takes one gallon of traditional fuel to produce 1.6 of ethanol. The corn that before fed cattle now supplies an ethanol plant the makes ethanol that replaces gasoline and also makes the byproducts to continue the feeding of our livestock. So we still have the feed value we had with the corn and we have the ethanol. So I must say the economics are against your silly theory. We produce more for less. You only have to look at where you are from in America to understand why you would continue to argue with simple economics.
Texas = OIL Ethanol = less oil
You being from Texas hate Ethanol

No your the one that doesn't get it as Americans we comsume up to 5 times more oil per person than the rest of the world. We want to drive surburbans and trucks that are getting mileage barely better than it was in the seventies. You want your cake and eat it to. We have oil off the East and West coast that our enviromental buddies have blocked drilling.
We need a new fuel source ethanol is the worst alternative out there right now. Buying oil to produce fuel that is less effiecent is not the right way to go.
Bet your kid drives to school while the school bus still passes the house everyday.
Coal is a viable solution as we have 250 years of reserves in this country until we can come up with something better.
Biodoesel has a potential future if we can solve the acidity problems with it.
Today the biggest problem with fuel is the government, American Refiners have to produce gasoline to EPA standards that is very costly to the consumer. Gasoline made for Atlanta can only go to Atlanta. We now have to make dozens of blends to meet EPA specs. A refinery in Mexico can import anything in here under Nafta. We can not compete why do you think we don't have hardly any American Companies left.
It is only going to get worse as companies are not going to build refineries in this country. We do not have an oil shortage as it can be bought we have a refinery shortage.
We haven't built a new refinery in this country since the 70's in La. You don't think demand has grown in the last 30 years?
If we built new refineries the fuel supply crunch would ease up as supply and demand equaled.
We still need a new fuel source for the future or a better engine. We need to wean ourselves of hydrocarbon addiction we have in this country. Ethanol doesn't do this!
Our quick viable solutions are more effiecent auto's and conservation, coal, and hydroelectric power along with nuclear power.

Come in out of the dark our appetite for energy is the problem.
We are the problem I like driving the big truck to.
We have turned up our nose to a problem that has been growing in this country for over thirty years.
 
Interesting thread.

1. Is that the study that assigned a cost to solar energy and charged it to ethanol?

2. Berkley, wonder if they have an agenda, like maybe they might not like modern agriculture, they tend to overlook that pesky problem of feeding all these people. :D

3. Hard to pull a stock trailer with a honda.:D

4. The economy is strong, the cholesterol scare people had their day and we lived through it. People love beef and will continue to buy it. Farms and ranches are being developed. Huge cattle number increases probably aren't going to happen. The price will stay up until the free traders allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to pour cheap foreign beef in here. :x Or some terrorist detonates a nuke in a major US city.

5. Why are they raising speed limits when cars are most efficient at 55. I know you western boys need to go faster, to cover the distances. We would save a lot of gas, by slowing down. :)

6. Let's do everything.

a. More refineries
b. More drilling.
c. Massive government funding for hydrogen fuel.
d. Enough Ethanol plants to replace MTBE

7. As long as the government guarantees $2.03 per bushel these boys are going to put corn in the ground. So it will be grown, what will we use it for is right. :)
 
Campground,

As a comparison how much energy is required to refine the crude oil into a gallon of gas?
 
tom4018":1leesql0 said:
Campground,

As a comparison how much energy is required to refine the crude oil into a gallon of gas?

Good question Tom as it takes roughly .48% of a barrel in energy to make a barrel of gasoline. So we need a barrel and a half for every barrel of product.
Ethanol is a real loser in it will take an additional barrel to get it to a motor fuel.
One of the major problems with ethanol is transportation as it can not be pipelined, it has to be sent by truck rail or barge.
Ethanol absorbs water which is used in refining processes and falls out in tankage and can be drawn off. So it can not use the current pipeline system we have as it has to stay in a dry enviroment.
 
But Camp if you ran alcohol you wouldn't have to pig those pipelines :lol: Or does anyone even do that any more? Or was that more of a gas(natural) line thing.
 
KMacGinley":1oy2r52v said:
Interesting thread.

1. Is that the study that assigned a cost to solar energy and charged it to ethanol?

2. Berkley, wonder if they have an agenda, like maybe they might not like modern agriculture, they tend to overlook that pesky problem of feeding all these people. :D

3. Hard to pull a stock trailer with a honda.:D

4. The economy is strong, the cholesterol scare people had their day and we lived through it. People love beef and will continue to buy it. Farms and ranches are being developed. Huge cattle number increases probably aren't going to happen. The price will stay up until the free traders allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to pour cheap foreign beef in here. :x Or some terrorist detonates a nuke in a major US city.

5. Why are they raising speed limits when cars are most efficient at 55. I know you western boys need to go faster, to cover the distances. We would save a lot of gas, by slowing down. :)

6. Let's do everything.

a. More refineries
b. More drilling.
c. Massive government funding for hydrogen fuel.
d. Enough Ethanol plants to replace MTBE

7. As long as the government guarantees $2.03 per bushel these boys are going to put corn in the ground. So it will be grown, what will we use it for is right. :)

Mac hydrogen is clean fuel , takes a lot of it, those pesky btu's again and it burns to slow for the internal combustion engine to have any real power.
We need a better motor.
I totally agree on the speed limits as that would be like building a couple of new refineries in fuel savings.
I am totally for a new fuel, just not ethanol because it does not reduce our dependency on imported oil.

DJ yes we still pig lines. The problem with ethanol in pipelines is it can't share as it retains water and can not be seperated as in hydrocarbons
 
Campground: Since ethanol is such a looser why not just leave it here in the midwest then you won't have to use more energy to haul it around. Please the arguement you chose to use here is pathetic. Just more misinformation that keeps the sheep that can't think for themselves in the dark.
 
W.B.":3rbc40rg said:
Campground: Since ethanol is such a looser why not just leave it here in the midwest then you won't have to use more energy to haul it around. Please the arguement you chose to use here is pathetic. Just more misinformation that keeps the sheep that can't think for themselves in the dark.

No you just want to line your pockets.
Importing more oil is not good for us or our children. I want my grandchildren not to be held hostage by foreign interest as I just got a son back from fighting so you can continue to consume fuel without any reguards to the consequences.
I spent 30 plus years in the oil industry and anything that requires us to import more is bad for the USA and makes the country I love more vunerable to our enimies.
If we come with a completely new fuel tomorrow we would still need refining for products from plastic to medicine.
We produce 8 million barrels of crude a day and thats where our appetite needs to be not at the 17 million barrels a day.
That means we have to import 378,000,000 million gallons currently, with your solution we would have to import 578,000,000 gallons to make up todays foreign import to convert your corn to fuel to line your pocket along with OPEC.
While this even gets worse as ethanol is not as effiecent as our current fuel and it would require us to import more.

Your solution is not good for our kids or our planet, I would like to think we are going to leave our kids and grandkids in a better postion than today. We have viable options out there today that do not have the pork barrel politics pushing us to use a worse fuel as ethanol.

Like I have said we need nuclear, hydro, wind, biodiesel(has some problems to overcome) as these reduce foreign dependence.

As far as sheep go you are the one following the flock not me I have broke from an industry that has fed my family for generations. We have to become less dependant on oil.
I teach Catalytic reforming. We need new techinology we can convert 90% of the barrel to transportation fuel , thats not the answer. I made my living off the oil industry for thirty years we have to change. Global warming is real burning fossil fuels only contributes to the problem. You solution burns more.
 
Campground: Using your outdated formulas ethanol is not efficient but your data is so outdated you are lost.


Like I said in an earlier post: It took me 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the 105 bushels of corn an acre on our farm last year. Ethanol yields around two gallons a bushel.
 
W.B.":ldv81kgv said:
Campground: Using your outdated formulas ethanol is not efficient but your data is so outdated you are lost.


Like I said in an earlier post: It took me 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the 105 bushels of corn an acre on our farm last year. Ethanol yields around two gallons a bushel.


Hmm a corn farmer or a refining expert that teaches refining. If any one is up on what it takes today to make and refine motor fuels I am going with the refining expert/cattleman versus the corn farmer/cattleman. Reading the info there is a lot more than just growing the corn. W.B. your out of your league.
 
I admit I know very little about ethanol but I would think that technology in conversion will keep improving and the amount of energy needed to convert will go down. Ethanol may not be the answer right now but I don't think scraping the idea is a good idea either. Who knows, maybe in another 20 years it may be the answer.

I can see Camp's reasoning but the logic is somewhat flawed in my opinion. The logic used is the same that PETA uses when they say it takes a million gallons of water and 15 barrels of oil to produce a hamburger.
 
Last post

Corn Dog
The ethanol subsidy is worse than you can imagine.
By Robert Bryce
Posted Tuesday, July 19, 2005, at 8:12 AM ET


Running on empty: Is ethanol the answer?
For the last generation, ethanol has been America's fuel of the future. But there has never been more hype about it than there is today. Green-energy analysts like Amory Lovins, environmental groups like the Natural Resources Defense Council, neoconservatives like James Woolsey, and farm groups like the American Coalition for Ethanol are all touting the biofuel.
Making ethanol, they claim, will help America achieve the elusive goal of "energy security" while helping farmers, reducing oil imports, and stimulating the American economy. But the ethanol boosters are ignoring some unpleasant facts: Ethanol won't significantly reduce our oil imports; adding more ethanol to our gas tanks adds further complexity to our motor-fuel supply chain, which will lead to further price hikes at the pump; and, most important (and most astonishing), it may take more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it actually contains.
The greens, hawks, and farmers helped convince the Senate to add an ethanol provision to the energy bill—now awaiting action by a House-Senate conference committee—that would require refiners to more than double their use of ethanol to 8 billion gallons per year by 2012. The provision is the latest installment of the ethanol subsidy, a handout that has cost American taxpayers billions of dollars during the last three decades, with little to show for it. It also shovels yet more federal cash on the single most subsidized crop in America, corn. Between 1995 and 2003, federal corn subsidies totaled $37.3 billion. That's more than twice the amount spent on wheat subsidies, three times the amount spent on soybeans, and 70 times the amount spent on tobacco.
The stickiest question about ethanol is this: Does making alcohol from grain or plant waste really create any new energy?
The answer, of course, depends upon whom you ask. The ethanol lobby claims there's a 30 percent net gain in BTUs from ethanol made from corn. Other boosters, including Woolsey, claim there are huge energy gains (as much as 700 percent) to be had by making ethanol from grass.
But the ethanol critics have shown that the industry calculations are bogus. David Pimentel, a professor of ecology at Cornell University who has been studying grain alcohol for 20 years, and Tad Patzek, an engineering professor at the University of California, Berkeley, co-wrote a recent report that estimates that making ethanol from corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol fuel itself actually contains.
The two scientists calculated all the fuel inputs for ethanol production—from the diesel fuel for the tractor planting the corn, to the fertilizer put in the field, to the energy needed at the processing plant—and found that ethanol is a net energy-loser. According to their calculations, ethanol contains about 76,000 BTUs per gallon, but producing that ethanol from corn takes about 98,000 BTUs. For comparison, a gallon of gasoline contains about 116,000 BTUs per gallon. But making that gallon of gas—from drilling the well, to transportation, through refining—requires around 22,000 BTUs.In addition to their findings on corn, they determined that making ethanol from switch grass requires 50 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol yields, wood biomass 57 percent more, and sunflowers 118 percent more. The best yield comes from soybeans, but they, too, are a net loser, requiring 27 percent more fossil energy than the biodiesel fuel produced. In other words, more ethanol production will increase America's total energy consumption, not decrease it. (Pimentel has not taken money from the oil or refining industries. Patzek runs the UC Oil Consortium, which does research on oil and is funded by oil companies. His ethanol research is not funded by the oil or refining industries*.) Ethanol poses other serious difficulties for our energy economy. First, 8 billion gallons of ethanol will do almost nothing to reduce our oil imports. Eight billion gallons may sound like a lot, until you realize that America burned more than 134 billion gallons of gasoline last year. By 2012, those 8 billion gallons might reduce America's overall oil consumption by 0.5 percent. Way back in 1997, the General Accounting Office concluded that "ethanol's potential for substituting for petroleum is so small that it is unlikely to significantly affect overall energy security." That's still true today.
Adding more ethanol will also increase the complexity of America's refining infrastructure, which is already straining to meet demand, thus raising pump prices. Ethanol must be blended with gasoline. But ethanol absorbs water. Gasoline doesn't. Therefore, ethanol cannot be shipped by regular petroleum pipelines. Instead, it must be segregated from other motor fuels and shipped by truck, rail car, or barge. Those shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.
There's another problem: Ethanol, when mixed with gasoline, causes the mixture to evaporate very quickly. That forces refiners to dramatically alter their gasoline to compensate for the ethanol. (Throughout the year, refiners adjust the vapor pressure of their fuel to compensate for the change in air temperature. In summer, you want gasoline to evaporate slowly. In winter, you want it to evaporate quickly.) In a report released last month, the GAO underscored the evaporative problems posed by ethanol, saying that compensating for ethanol forces refiners to remove certain liquids from their gasoline: "Removing these components and reprocessing them or diverting them to other products increases the cost of making ethanol-blended gasoline."
In addition to the transportation and volatility issues, ethanol will add yet more blends of gasoline to the retail market. Last year, American refiners produced 45 different types of gasoline. Each type of gasoline needs specific tanks and pipes. Adding ethanol to the 45 blends we already have means we will be "making more blends for more markets. That complexity means more costs," says David Pursell, a partner at Pickering Energy Partners, a Houston brokerage.
There's a final point to be raised about ethanol: It contains only about two-thirds as much energy as gasoline. Thus, when it gets blended with regular gasoline, it lowers the heat content of the fuel. So, while a gallon of ethanol-blended gas may cost the same as regular gasoline, it won't take you as far.
What frustrates critics is that there are sensible ways to reduce our motor-fuel use and bolster renewable energy—they just don't help the corn lobby. Patzek points out that if we channeled the billions spent on ethanol into fuel-efficient cars and solar cells, "That would give us so much more bang for the buck that it's a no-brainer."
 
There seems to be no reason to continue to argue the point with these people Campground is an oil man and caustic well I don't know what to say. He obviously has no clue how an ethanol plant works if he did he wouldn't have any reason to have cut you down. The fact is corn will always be produced for feed regardless. If the corn first stops at an ethanol plant then goes on to a cattle feedyard great Better for America. Every bushel of corn raised for feed = 56 pounds of 8% potien feed. If you send it to an ethanol plant first every bushel of corn equals 2.8 gallons of ethanol and 17 pounds of 26% protien feed and 17.5 pounds of co2. So as you can see according to Campground Cattle all that energy is only used in the production of ethanol and all that feed and co2 required no energy to produce. Stop kidding yourself Campground as a person taking part on a cattle today Q & A board you must have some cattle or did at one time you should be able to see the value in at least in the feed.
 
W.B.":1e12saby said:
Like I said in an earlier post: It took me 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the 105 bushels of corn an acre on our farm last year. Ethanol yields around two gallons a bushel.

How many gallons did it take to produce the fertilizer you used, move the product to market or refine the product? Like CB; I've got to go with the refinning expert!

Yes, we've got to find another means of enery but that is awhile off. In the meantime we need to get rid of the tree huggers and drill offshore in California, Florida and in the Alaskan Artic. EPA needs to take a break and let diesel engines return to the efficiency they used to have and allow the building of more refineries. Then we need an alternative energy program simliar to the "Manhatten Project". Unfortunately, all of our politicians have their heads buried in the sand and can't get past the next election. We need to forget about all the rules and just "git 'er done!".

Norris
 
somn":1u7ebfnm said:
There seems to be no reason to continue to argue the point with these people Campground is an oil man and caustic well I don't know what to say. He obviously has no clue how an ethanol plant works if he did he wouldn't have any reason to have cut you down. The fact is corn will always be produced for feed regardless. If the corn first stops at an ethanol plant then goes on to a cattle feedyard great Better for America. Every bushel of corn raised for feed = 56 pounds of 8% potien feed. If you send it to an ethanol plant first every bushel of corn equals 2.8 gallons of ethanol and 17 pounds of 26% protien feed and 17.5 pounds of co2. So as you can see according to Campground Cattle all that energy is only used in the production of ethanol and all that feed and co2 required no energy to produce. Stop kidding yourself Campground as a person taking part on a cattle today Q & A board you must have some cattle or did at one time you should be able to see the value in at least in the feed.


I have to defend my neighbor here who is an oil man and an expert in his field. I know we can't pen cattle with out a refinery from somewhere calling him on what to do. I seriously doubt the man is confused on energy or energy issues. He has stated what is good for the country not corn producers pockets or is he being blinded by the price at the pump as he knows what effects it.
Chris B and somn please tell me of your creditials in the energy field as I know my neighbors.
 
norriscathy":32vn7dhr said:
W.B.":32vn7dhr said:
Like I said in an earlier post: It took me 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the 105 bushels of corn an acre on our farm last year. Ethanol yields around two gallons a bushel.

How many gallons did it take to produce the fertilizer you used, move the product to market or refine the product? Like CB; I've got to go with the refinning expert!

Yes, we've got to find another means of enery but that is awhile off. In the meantime we need to get rid of the tree huggers and drill offshore in California, Florida and in the Alaskan Artic. EPA needs to take a break and let diesel engines return to the efficiency they used to have and allow the building of more refineries. Then we need an alternative energy program simliar to the "Manhatten Project". Unfortunately, all of our politicians have their heads buried in the sand and can't get past the next election. We need to forget about all the rules and just "git 'er done!".

Norris
Norriscathy
First of all transporting the product has nothing to do with the production of the product I hate to say your gas doesn't magically appear in the tank below your gas station a fuel tansport delivered it there. The same way they will deliver the ethanol so please use a different approach. As far as needing to be refined I'm uncertain what you meen Ethanol has a denaturant added at the plant to make it undrinkable if thats what you meen by refined the denature is just regular gasoline.
The fertilizer is called hog sh*t it takes 1.25 gallons of diesel fuel per acre to apply it. The rest of the year our diesel use has averaged 9.7 gallons per acre to produce the corn and transport it to the plant. From that acre we averaged 173 bushels of corn per acre for the last 17 years. 173 bushels of corn equals 484 gallons of ethanol. 12.12 gallons of diesel fuel to produce 484 gallons of ethanol you do the math.


Campground this is where you can put some of your knowledge to work. How much energy is used in only the production of the ethanol from the time the corn gets to the plant until it leaves as useable fuel. You claim to know so much about ethanol beinf a waste so give me the exact figures. I for one will never ever believe the ethanol plant will use 300 gallons of tradional fuel to produce those 484 gallons of ethanol. But hey your the energy expert as you and caustic claim.


Caustic I have no "creditials" in the refining buisness I will admit that. I'm quite certain your friend Campground has no creditials in the production of No 2 yellow corn but yet he has all the answers when it comes to the amount of energy used in corn production. I will gladly listen to his expertise about refining but he needs to listen to an expert in corn production.
Amazing what people can learn if they only listen. I'm not sure where your from but campground and norris are from Texas we used to buy cattle at Sulphur Springs and Stephensville I never saw a decent looking corn crop in Texas when I picked up those cattle. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Texas I've just never seen it. Texas is big. But maybe your vision of a cornfield and mine are so very different that you can'tunderstand it is possible that it works to turn corn into ethanol But it does.
 

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