Lower Input Production Information

[RDFF]

I'd cringe to know the cost of that whole thing.

I had about $350 in it. Not as much as they're selling those cutesy backyard coops for... and those wouldn't be "portable". I drag this around in the growing season, moving every few days or so. I DID build it a couple of years ago (just before the "Covid plandemic"), so I'd expect PVC is higher now (although PE black pipe has come back down closer to where it was...). Wife wanted a chicken coop, I didn't want one I couldn't get into without crawling!

 

[Ebenezer]

I had about $350 in it. Not as much as they're selling those cutesy backyard coops for... and those wouldn't be "portable". I drag this around in the growing season, moving every few days or so. I DID build it a couple of years ago (just before the "Covid plandemic"), so I'd expect PVC is higher now (although PE black pipe has come back down closer to where it was...). Wife wanted a chicken coop, I didn't want one I couldn't get into without crawling!

The PVC pipe was my concern. That stuff has become ridiculous in price.

 

[RDFF]

How far are we talking about making them walk back via lane? The problem with lanes, especially far ones, is that a lot of nutrients are dropped and wasted in them in their travel back and forth. Sometimes though it's about the only way to do it.

Pretty much all of my strips are a half mile long... so if they're on the far end, they'd have to walk that full half mile back to the north end... but that's not in a "lane" per se.... it's just one of the strips.... 215' wide..., and I can get them to the water on the far end using any one of the strips. For the most part, they just use the strip that they're grazing on... 1 strip will typically last my herd about 3-4 days... and then they move on to the next one. My point being, the nutrients that are being dropped are being dropped on the fields that they're grazing on... so not wasted at all.

Once they get to the other end, last year, when I was watering them on the creek, the furthest they'd have to go then from the end of the strip..., "in the lane on the end", to the creek, would be another 1/4 mile or so, if they were on the furthest away strip. So maybe 3/4 mile to a mile.

I want to extend the water line that I put in last fall, so that I never have to water them on the creek basically (put waterers on the back end of the farm in the "headland" too). Ideally, I'd put one inline with every other subdivision fence, centered in that headland on the end of the farm (80' wide headland).... then the furthest they'd have to walk would be 1/2 mile... if they were on the far end of the strip. In practice though, I wouldn't install a waterer in a low spot... and I might even avoid putting one on the side slope, preferring that they be put on a high point or knob, for drainage. On my farm, that might mean they'd have to walk another 300-400' extra in that "headland".

However, even that headland is considered to be "field" and pasture (that's part of why I make them 80' wide). So any manure applied there in that "headland/lane" is also not wasted. My biggest concern about walking them very far in that headland... like I HAVE been having to do to get them to the creek, is that they're walking up and down the hills there... so the cowpaths tend to be prone to more erosion. That's another reason why I want to get waterers installed on the back end of the farm.

 

[ClinchValley86]

CV, how many acres are you working with there in the pic? It doesn't APPEAR to be much TOTAL ground for the number of animals that I count in the other images... curious what your animal density per total grazable acres is... it would APPEAR to be pretty high. Wondering how you make that work? Feeding when the pasture runs short and needs rest period (I see the swaths rolled out in the background on green pasture)? Have some other pasture ground you can move them to? The grass in the pics where they're grazing looks to be in great shape!

What's the full width of your property (property line fence to property line fence), and what's the length from the front boundary fence at the bottom to the far end of the woods on the upper end of the image? I see that you've got plenty of "slope" to deal with.... Any "wet spots" to have to work around?

There are 60 grazable acres on this farm. I lease 30 acres that I make hay on. I bought 250 rolls last winter on top of the 215 i rolled.

No real wet spots. Everything drains well. My runoff is clear as bottled water usually.

We started with 14 head in 2016. And been retaining and culling hard since. Currently at 63 head on it, 24 of which are 500 lb calves.I am playing a game of Russian roulette at the moment.

I'm clearly overstocked. Looking for pasture to rent at the present. Like to take the cows somewhere and grazed weaned calves and the 2 and 3 year old beefs for finishing.

Honestly though. If it'd just damn rain, I'd be fine. We have no real rain since spring green up. Maybe an inch. I did start grazing April 1.

I honestly don't know the property dimensions.

Couple pics. Started 2nd pass of the season this weekend. Giving rain this week. Things should catch back up. Cows have gnawed the fescue down to 2 inches tall. Clover should be great in 30 to 45 days... if it'll rain.

Cows look rough to me. They normally are fat in spring. But these carried calves all winter and the bought hay sucked ****.

 

[ClinchValley86]

@RDFF here's my little chocolate SimAngus bull calf I'm keeping intact to use. Most here probably won't like it/him. He's a humdinger for my needs. He should look like a Boss after 4 or 6 weeks of good grazing. I feel they a are lacking a bit of consition from the hard winter feeding situation.

Pic of him, him and his mother and his granddam. Granny is my favorite.

 

[ClinchValley86]

@RDFF

I just move them a lot and try to rest long as I can. No fertilize, sprays, wormers, nothing. Hay is my fertilize.

The swaths you mentioned is from winter feeding. I fed on that 30 acres all winter. Almost 400 rolls fed on it. It's super green.

Got to get some lease ground for cows or I'm gonna have no grass. Lol. I'm keeping my cows I've decided. They work hard for me with almost no input. Gonna be beefing 3 heifers that didn't breed back. Having to be hard-core on my culling.

Hope to beef 30 of them by end of next winter. So that should thin it out. Just gotta get there and they get and stay fat in the mean time.

Couple pics showing how I use so few water points. Hopefully they paint somewhat of an understandable mental image.

 

[Allenw]

The PVC pipe was my concern. That stuff has become ridiculous in price.

PVC eventually deteriorates in sunlight and becomes brittle is the big downside. Painting it will help.

 

[RDFF]

PVC eventually deteriorates in sunlight and becomes brittle is the big downside. Painting it will help.

Yup.

 

[RDFF]

CV, your terrain is pretty hilly/steep... more similar to where I grew up in the bluffs above the Mississippi River Valley. Our fields there were farmed on the contour. Makes everything alot more difficult... Walking the cattle to anywhere for water will generate cowpaths.... if you can keep them on the contour, they'll be less of an issue... but obviously, if you can avoid that situation, regardless of your farm layout, it'd be "better". This gets back to "context", and only you can know best how to decide what fits your situation. I would agree though that you're probably heavily overstocked for how much grass you can expect to grow.... You can make up for that by feeding hay..., but they'll still always graze off the new growth before taking the hay. About all you can do is manage as much of the ground as possible "right" (flash graze, taking 1/2 leaving half), then get them off. Once you've accomplished this, put them on a sacrifice area and feed until the pastures are ready for another round, and repeat.

Then rotate year to year which area you will use as the sacrifice area, and probably "reseed" that???? (depends on the seedbank and the hay you've laid down on it). Your "sacrifice area" will then obviously receive a high level of residue and manure application, so it should "recover" nicely... kind of like with bale grazing.

 

[andybob]

Considering the prices of inputs now, I hope producers are exploring alternative routes when it comes to soil and animal health.

I suggest checking out videos/podcasts/literature of a few smart people, producers and scientists, in efforts to learn more about working with biology instead of against. I truly feel we have been blinded by Big Ag over the last 100 years, very very very much so in the last 50.

This list barely scratches the surface of smart folks bringing great information to light.

Producers:
Allen Savory (OG)
Dr. Allen Williams
Gabe Brown (Experimentor)
Greg Judy. (Most popular I'd say)
Will Harris (Best last name ☺)
Jim Gerrish (OG)
Joel Salatin (OG)
Mark shepherd (OG)

Scientists:
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Dr. Ray Archuletta (My most favorite)
Dr. Allen Williams (My 2nd favorite)
Dr. Christine Jones

YouTube Channels:
KYForages
Noble Research Institute
Grassfed Exchange


Podcasts:
Working Cows Podcast
Herd Quitter
Stockman Grass Farmer
Grazed in America
Grazing Grass

I wanted to be sure everyone knew there are options, and that most profit-robbing inputs are able to be managed around while improving soil/animals at the same time.

Share any information resources you have found helpful.

I would add Johann Zietsman, producer and geneticist and Jaime Elizondo nutrition, grazing and composite breeding, he is well known as the manager of the largest Mashona herd in the USA.

 

[RDFF]

I would agree though that you're probably heavily overstocked for how much grass you can expect to grow....

Honestly though, IF YOU GET THE RAINS, and your soil is good, you're at about the same stocking density as what I've got at my "other place".

I'm at about 1 acre per AU there through the summer (but I DO feel like I'm overstocked there too). I generally am "comfortable" planning for 1.25 acres/AU on cows, not including the calf weight up to 500#. BUT............ I don't let the animals out onto the grass until it's got plenty of length (coming nigh onto shooting heads in a week or so)... I'll try to keep feeding them hay on a "sacrifice area" until then.

I just locked mine off of the fields a week ago, because they were nipping everything that was just beginning to try to grow off. So now, I've got them on a sacrifice pasture stocked at about 10 AU/acre, and am feeding them as much hay as they want (not expecting ANYTHING AT ALL for feed from the grass that's growing there). I'm unrolling the hay daily, and figure for "planned wastage" to keep the pasture clean and built up.... similar concept to what you'd end up with when bale grazing, but evenly distributed across the whole pasture. Once the grass on the rest of it is where I'm comfortable turning them out, this pasture won't be grazed again until it has been allowed to go to seed basically. I haven't found a need to "reseed it" after this, but certainly wouldn't rule it out if it required it.

Last year at this density, I didn't have to start feeding hay until mid-November. Where I reduced to 1.25/AU on the cows (my custom grazed herd), I got to mid December.

 

[ClinchValley86]

@RDFF

You're absolutely correct. I will hopefully find some lease ground in the next few weeks. I don't think I can tolerate anymore animals right now. LOL. They're giving rain the next 5 days.

Still yet, pretty cool that I'm hanging on at 1:1.

If it doesn't rain this week. I've got a list of 5 cull cows I'm taking along with a few shite calves that aren't worth beefing. Maybe come home with a weeks worth of hay.

This is what it looked like same day in April last year.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I would add Johann Zietsman, producer and geneticist and Jaime Elizondo nutrition, grazing and composite breeding, he is well known as the manager of the largest Mashona herd in the USA.

Zietsman is one I've been digging into their work the last 6 months. I'm looking at keeping my own bull. Trying to apply his selection criteria.

Jaime is a bit different, but he's getting some real results. You tried his ways?

 

[ClinchValley86]

Honestly though, IF YOU GET THE RAINS, and your soil is good, you're at about the same stocking density as what I've got at my "other place".

I'm at about 1 acre per AU there through the summer (but I DO feel like I'm overstocked there too). I generally am "comfortable" planning for 1.25 acres/AU on cows, not including the calf weight up to 500#. BUT............ I don't let the animals out onto the grass until it's got plenty of length (coming nigh onto shooting heads in a week or so)... I'll try to keep feeding them hay on a "sacrifice area" until then.

I just locked mine off of the fields a week ago, because they were nipping everything that was just beginning to try to grow off. So now, I've got them on a sacrifice pasture stocked at about 10 AU/acre, and am feeding them as much hay as they want (not expecting ANYTHING AT ALL for feed from the grass that's growing there). I'm unrolling the hay daily, and figure for "planned wastage" to keep the pasture clean and built up.... similar concept to what you'd end up with when bale grazing, but evenly distributed across the whole pasture. Once the grass on the rest of it is where I'm comfortable turning them out, this pasture won't be grazed again until it has been allowed to go to seed basically. I haven't found a need to "reseed it" after this, but certainly wouldn't rule it out if it required it.

Last year at this density, I didn't have to start feeding hay until mid-November. Where I reduced to 1.25/AU on the cows (my custom grazed herd), I got to mid December.

Drought kicked my butt. Would've had stockpile if it'd had rained. Chose to fed hay and hang onto my animals as I saw prices about to skyrocket. Costed me dollars but saved me some peace of mind truly.

 

[andybob]

Zietsman is one I've been digging into their work the last 6 months. I'm looking at keeping my own bull. Trying to apply his selection criteria.

Jaime is a bit different, but he's getting some real results. You tried his ways?

Johann and I are from the same community in the former Rhodesia, and so I have been influenced by his work since I began with native breeds in the 70's. Jaimes' work is an extension of the high density grazing methods evolved by Allan Savory and Johann (with input from several other ranchers) his grazing system is working as effectively here in the UK as it has in the Chihuahuan Desert in Mexico, I do believe that Allans' holistic management needs to be applied in this grazing system as well.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Johann and I are from the same community in the former Rhodesia, and so I have been influenced by his work since I began with native breeds in the 70's. Jaimes' work is an extension of the high density grazing methods evolved by Allan Savory and Johann (with input from several other ranchers) his grazing system is working as effectively here in the UK as it has in the Chihuahuan Desert in Mexico, I do believe that Allans' holistic management needs to be applied in this grazing system as well.

That is really neat. I see it working everywhere on Earth. Just not when your in a drought and refuse to destock. ☺

Glad you've chimed in. I need to add some more names to the original post.