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Well, you high & mighty cow/calf producers; yes you can claim you are purists, but how can any of you escape the fact that each & every one of you are part of the overall cattle/beef industry? Your calves go into the feedlots & there all the ideals you apparently hold so dear are violated, no "blood" on your hands - correct? You didn't do "it" on your farms, so you're absolved of any guilt – correct? Your high ideals & self righteous beliefs allow you to look down on those that do differently & to criticize without facts because you're all blameless, choosing to ignore what happens next in the cattle process (without your calves the "abnormal/horrible" feedlot feed practices couldn't take place).
Why don't you "better than I folk" go to the this site: http://www.rense.com/general6/cowveg.htm to get a fill of what gets fed to your precious calves once you're done with them; & yes you can all feel good because this guy agrees with you that feeding chicken litter is abhorrent (does that validate your self-righteousness)? Seems to me that you are all a bit two faced, knowing that your calves are subsequently fed ground up animals, one of the very things you find so unacceptable - why do you let this happen, are you really that much better than me? Final note: all I originally tried to do was offer up a comment that I learned much from autopsy results & made the mistake of admitting what that was – I will not make that mistake again. I thought I was in the presence of open minded & objective thinking farmers – apparently not!
Is litter even an option to most of those that find it so objectionable?
 
Farminlund":u5fkm3kr said:
There is an apparent reluctance on the part of the public, as well as of some beef producers, to accept broiler Litter as a cattle feed. However, the public readily accepts organically grown vegetables grown on composted broiler Litter. The process by which a plant assimilates food into its tissues is much less complicated than the process by which a cow does the same thing; a cow's food is broken down and processed much more completely. And, in fact, a cow must be off broiler litter for 15 days before it can be slaughtered for beef, while a mushroom can go directly from its bed of manure to the grocery store.

What is the source of this quote? Where was it published, or who uttered it and in what context? I doubt that the public reluctance is "apparent", I bet that it is real and nearly palpable, if the public were to be polled. And saying that "some" beef producers are reluctant is misleading also, I would bet that "most" or "a great majority" would be more appropriate. Mushrooms don't suffer from nor do they transmit Salmonella and other such diseases, as far as I know. I think that for the most part, the general public is aware of how mushrooms are raised. But for the most part, I doubt that the general public would think that their shrink wrapped T-Bone from the supermarket, was grazing on chicken turds two short weeks ago. Further, the comparison of chicken litter used for fertilizer and chicken litter used to feed a herbivorous animal raised for human consumption makes about as much sense as saying that we could now scrap the dairy industry because we no longer need dairy products to get our daily supply of calcium, now we have chocately smelling composting chicken turds for all of our dietary calcium requirements. Also, I'll ask again - do you actually have to pay for the chicken litter?
 
Farminlund":34sjr9rm said:
Well, you high & mighty cow/calf producers; yes you can claim you are purists, but how can any of you escape the fact that each & every one of you are part of the overall cattle/beef industry? Your calves go into the feedlots & there all the ideals you apparently hold so dear are violated, no "blood" on your hands - correct? You didn't do "it" on your farms, so you're absolved of any guilt – correct? Your high ideals & self righteous beliefs allow you to look down on those that do differently & to criticize without facts because you're all blameless, choosing to ignore what happens next in the cattle process (without your calves the "abnormal/horrible" feedlot feed practices couldn't take place).
Why don't you "better than I folk" go to the this site: http://www.rense.com/general6/cowveg.htm to get a fill of what gets fed to your precious calves once you're done with them; & yes you can all feel good because this guy agrees with you that feeding chicken litter is abhorrent (does that validate your self-righteousness)? Seems to me that you are all a bit two faced, knowing that your calves are subsequently fed ground up animals, one of the very things you find so unacceptable - why do you let this happen, are you really that much better than me? Final note: all I originally tried to do was offer up a comment that I learned much from autopsy results & made the mistake of admitting what that was – I will not make that mistake again. I thought I was in the presence of open minded & objective thinking farmers – apparently not!
Is litter even an option to most of those that find it so objectionable?
Attitude............................ :x
 
I have stayed out for a while - but it is time to jump in. First and foremost, you are quite right in stating that we are all part of the industry. As a cow calf operator I used to send my animals to the feedlot. And in turn those feedlots fed things to my animals that I did not consider unacceptable. If I knew then what I have learned over the past 2 years I would not have eaten what I thought to be "pure" beef. Forgive the term - but I think you all know what I mean.

I am definitely NOT high and mighty. If I were I could afford a new winter coat. I believe we as producers have an obligation to the public to ensure the food they eat is as healthy, nutritious and clean as is humanly possible. There was a time when I believed government regs and various federal and state / provincial inspectors along the route from field to fork were doing their jobs - and I - along with thousands of others trusted them - wrongly so.

We in Canada have learned the hard way. It is now very apparent to me and many like me that if we are to succeed in this business we must make it very clear to the consumer that we have their best interest at heart. We must do this while we do our best to remain profitable - otherwise we will eventually import all of our food from off shore. We cannot gain their confidence unless we do "not only what is right, but what is perceived to be right".

In other words WE have to mind the store - because our legislators will do it for us if we do not.

Was I guilty once upon a time? Yup - and so were the vast majority of producers out there - some knowingly and some unwittingly. No longer.

Your high ideals & self righteous beliefs allow you to look down on those that do differently & to criticize without facts because you're all blameless, choosing to ignore what happens next in the cattle process (without your calves the "abnormal/horrible" feedlot feed practices couldn't take place).

You have reacted in a predictable manner because you perceive yourself under attack. That is where you are wrong - oh so wrong. It is not you - it is the entire system that is under attack. And well it should be. We have either contaminated our food and created this disease - BSE - or it has sprung from somewhere. At this time no one can actually prove where it comes from. All the scientists in the world can only theorize what the origin of this disease is.

What we producers must do - as must the feedlot business - is change the way we operate as an industry. Realize that we all sink together if the public sees us feeding things to herbivores that should only be fed to carnivores. Grandma is not likely to continue serving the family a nice roast on weekend get togethers if she finds her food comes from something she would not approve of. You can be sure that your local friends and neighbours will not either.

Feedlots are changing. And they will have to. Imagine how the local consumer would think if he understood what he/she was eating. Well, they are getting smarter. And we have to get smarter as well.

I do not mean to fool the public or lie to the public. I mean we must learn to feed in a manner that allows us to make a dollar and at the same time provide food that the public is willing to eat - especially after they scrutinize the methods we use to raise that food. And, that scrutinization has come to Canada - and IT WILL COME to your back door - perhaps sooner than you may think or desire. The internet is a powerful tool being used by those who are for our industry and those who are against it.

We have to cater to the consumer. That means we MUST feed what is right and proper. And, no I do not believe one should feed animals chicken poop. (Can't believe I actually wrote "poop)

Why don't you "better than I folk"

No one has "called you down" - even though I disagree with your feed process, I do not know you - so I cannot state I am better than you. So, get off your horse and set a spell.

(does that validate your self-righteousness)?

Not being self-righteous - just being factual. I know that there is a very large movement afoot in my country to CHANGE and ban processes like the one you are using right now. If it is legal in your country, then perhaps it is simply time for you to re-evaluate your own procedures. I know profitability is important. If you knew me as well as many on this board you would know that is almost always my prime concern. Sooner or later changes will come and you will be forced to comply. (Borg comes to mind - any Trekkies her?)

Seems to me that you are all a bit two faced, knowing that your calves are subsequently fed ground up animals, one of the very things you find so unacceptable - why do you let this happen, are you really that much better than me?

Nope I do not think I am better than you - I simply DISAGREE with you.

There is a heck of a difference in that - at least where I come from.

Actually I now know that my animals ARE NOT fed ground up animals. Never feed meat to an animal that does not have a beak or sharp teeth. My animals are grass finished and actually bring a premium on the local market. Still horrible pricing, but that is due to the current Canadian situation. This is only for the past two years. Prior to that I was as you stated - sending them off to be fed ground "stuff".

As for making mistakes - these guys have beat me up a time or two. I figure they were wrong - and they figure they were right. Well actually. I KNOW they were wrong! :D

So rather than bore you with more pontification, I have a couple of questions:

1. Is this the ONLY way for you to be profitable?
2. Have you explored other feed avenues?
3. Do you believe this is the way of the future for the industry as a whole?
4. For all of the above - Why / why not?

I will start by answering your question.

Is litter even an option to most of those that find it so objectionable

There was a time when I gave it no consideration. I did not care. Then one day while I was standing at our north gate watering cows my lovely wife of more than 25 years drove in the yard and came to me. She had a look in her eyes that told me she was more than a little worried. "Hon, the radio announced they have found BSE in Alberta".

From that day until today we have been fighting to keep this place afloat. There have been no hard words in this house, but the stress has been unimaginable. Neighbours have helped, banks and lawyers have threatened, Christmas was saved by parents pitching in - no, taking over - bless them - to make sure the kids could at least have something. I drive through snow on bald tires and rely on my strong back to keep going - even when I want to quit.

Wife has aged far too much and far too early. My kids are now serious adults at too early an age. Not pleasant I can assure you.

If you are not careful it can happen to you - may God help you all if it does.

The risks are not worth it.

No.

Regards

Bez
 
I second that CHB! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Bez, you make such good points with a wonderful way with words! Everyone in the cattle business (any ANY sector, be it cow/calf, feedlot, ect.) needs to seriously and sincerely read your words and take it to heart. People need to realize what happened in Canada because of what was done to save money. People need to think long and hard about what any possible long term consequences are of their short term decisions.
 
Farminlund":1vos9i7r said:
I thought I was in the presence of open minded & objective thinking farmers – apparently not!

I find it hard to believe that anyone in the business would think that farmers, particularly cattle farmers are open minded!
My comment about not feeding uera is a purly personal one, not meant as a "superior attitude" just a simple statement of fact.
But I'm with the others on feeding "chicken litter".

dun
 
Hey, Dun--my long-legged dogs had a conference and decided unanimously that all feed tubs needed just a bit more urea. They check and adjust them religiously!
 
fellersbarnoneranch":2o2zjlg0 said:
Hey, Dun--my long-legged dogs had a conference and decided unanimously that all feed tubs needed just a bit more urea. They check and adjust them religiously!

I our current dog or the older ones tried to annoint anything in the pasture they would end up that brown gooey stuff between the cows toes and smeared on their heads.

dun
 
Who needs guard donkeys with cows that self-sufficient? When we got our great pyrenees--the first command they learned was "don't pee on that!" Now they wait till I feed and the cows are distracted!
 
I got a question:
I read in the Stockman Grassfarmer a recent article about running pigs with cattle. The point was the pigs live on cow pies. Tha didn't seem right to me but do any of you actually do this?
I also read another similar article where they run chicken and turkeys with cows and the birds pick the cow pies clean to get read of the parasites; which supposedly do not affect the birds.
Also, I read somewhere that many catfish farms feed chicken litter mixed with molasses to catfish and shrimp. Apparently cattle are not the only animals that will east chicken litter.

I never seen a cow eat anything other than grass and the ocassional range cube but has anyone seen their preference when presented with hay and chicken litter side by side?

I don't know enough about bovine nutrition to criticize anyone but I am curious as to what cows prefer.

Thanks,
Andrew
 
Andrew":30dy0mhw said:
I got a question:
I read in the Stockman Grassfarmer a recent article about running pigs with cattle. The point was the pigs live on cow pies. Tha didn't seem right to me but do any of you actually do this?
I also read another similar article where they run chicken and turkeys with cows and the birds pick the cow pies clean to get read of the parasites; which supposedly do not affect the birds.
Also, I read somewhere that many catfish farms feed chicken litter mixed with molasses to catfish and shrimp. Apparently cattle are not the only animals that will east chicken litter.

I never seen a cow eat anything other than grass and the ocassional range cube but has anyone seen their preference when presented with hay and chicken litter side by side?

I don't know enough about bovine nutrition to criticize anyone but I am curious as to what cows prefer.

Thanks,
Andrew

I would assume that the pigs glean grain and probably insects and larvae from the pies. Coons and possums do the same thing. Chickens and turkeys do pick about the patties and eat the bugs and larvae plus scatter them around. Here we just leave them for the wild turkey, coons, possums, etc.
Years ago a friend of mine grazed pigs and they still tore the place up. I've worked too hard on the quality of my pastures to be turning in a bunch of rototillers.

dun
 
A cow patty doesn't stand much of a chance with all the birds down here. Other than that I just don't think anything likes to eat a turd other than a sorry old potlicker dog every now and then. Hogs and such really only eat it if the cows are grain fed, then they like to pick the unprocessed grains from the pile. A cow will NOT eat chicken crap when it has real food available.
 
I try to raise my cattle as naturally as possible, though some will argue with my definition of "natural". Some think it is unnatural to feed a cow corn, so....you can't please everyone.

Anyways. I don't feed rumensin or those things. I don't use implants. I don't use any commercial feeds at all, but grind my own feed out of corn and soybean meal (there's some that will throw a fit over soy too). I do feed mineral and salt. I grow my own hay. I only use antibiotics when an animal is sick...and that rarely happens anymore.

I realized back when we had our own BSE scare that the normal market could care less about how I raise my calves. They go to the sale barn and no one asks what I fed them or how they have been raised. They don't care because as soon as they get them, they are going to pump them full of god knows what in the name of gain. Not only that, but I get penalized because my calves don't weigh as much as they could if I did all those things I'm "supposed" to do. I decided that I was going to start selling my cattle to the people who do care....the ones who eat it.

I started doing this in July of last year. It has caught on quick. In six months, I sold 15 steers as meat. Most of those were one cut at a time....I will sell freezer beef, but by far, most of my business is in retail cuts. A steak, a few pounds of ground beef, whatever you want, I got it!

I have quite a few very loyal customers and it just keeps growing. I make it a point NOT to knock down the beef industry in general or spread fear-mongering rumors about what cattle are fed, how they are fed, etc. I simply tell people how I raise my cattle and why I do it. These people go out of their way to buy my meat because they believe in what I'm doing (not to mention nothing tastes better than homegrown meat!).

These people are willing to pay a bit more for my meat. I don't get $5/pound for hamburger like some do. I don't target "high-end" consumers. I don't target "health-conscious" consumers. I sell to every day folks. They are willing to pay more because they do care about what they eat, or more accurately, they care about what was fed to the animals they are eating. You'd be surprised at how many folks out there do care.

At first, I thought it would be impossible to sell all the cattle I raise this way. I raise about 100 calves a year. Yeah, 15 out of 100 ain't that much, but it's more than I thought I would. I'll probably sell at least twice that next year and before I know it...I won't be going to the sale barn anymore except to unload the ones I had to treat with antibiotics because they were ill.

I don't think I have a superior attitude. I just think that consumers WANT clean meat and I know they are willing to pay for it. Maybe if feedlots would figure this out, I'd be out of business. If wal-mart started selling natural meat...sheesh...folks would snap it up!

Jena
 
gerald segelstrom":34w913ze said:
Last week I lost a cow that seemed to just waste away. She was only 2 1/2 years old and had tested positive two months ago as being about 5 months preg. 2 years ago I lost a cow that the vet figured was selinium deficient. I provided mineral blocks w/ Si and she didn't seem interested. From the very beginning this cow was strange. When I would grain the rest of the herd she would just stand a the feeder and continue to eat hay. The last two weeks of her life she was just in a funk. The day I decided to call the vet she died. Any suggests besides telling me to call the vet sooner?

Have you considered that it might be Johne's?
 
i doubt its johnes in a 2.5 year old. hardware is likely, though. afterall, curiosity killed the cow.
 
Cattle "acquire" Johnes as newborn calves, but it rarely shows any sign until they are 2 years old or after calving. It sits in their system until they are stressed, which usually the first major stress is calving with their first calf. Even though it was just "sitting" in their system not showing any signs, they are still spreading the disease in their feces.

Johnes was always thought to be just a disease affecting dairies, but that is not true anymore. It is a major concern in most states. We are part of the BQA program & we have had our whole herd tested for Johnes, all negative. But that does not mean we can guarantee we do not have it. It takes several fecal tests to prove your herd is clean. Several years ago, our state subsidized the testing & we did it two or three years - all clear.

But it is often called a "wasting" disease. They just keep eating & sh--ing & wasting away. But yes, they usually show signs of severe scouring.
 
Jena,
Do you vaccinate the cows? I'm trying to mimic someone else's successful practice.

What all inputs do you have into your herd aside from hay and grain?

Thanks,
Andrew
 

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