Looking for cheap winter graze -possibilites

[Andrew]

Hello,
I have a situation I need help with. I have a pasture in which 100ac of it is completely filled with dried up sunflowers.
I just bought this place and its 166 ac.
The 66ac has a very good stand of native grass and that's where I moved my cows to.

The other 100 ac were used for hay but the guy that used to do it, didn't do it this year and the place just got overgrown with the sun flowers. The 100 ac were polwed every year and fertilized. It had a good stand of Johnson but the sunflowers overtook it.

My question is: What inexpensive means do I realistically have to produce a winter graze for my cws. I only have 15 now but would like to get up to 30~50 (I have another 80ac in warm season grasses and bermuda).

I presented the question to one of my neighbors and he said it would take at least $9K to put anything on the 100ac. That seems a little hight given that I already spend plenty buying the place.

Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

Congrats on your new purchase; sounds like a nice piece of ground. Isn't Frost, Texas near Corsicana? What do the locals grow, if anything, for winter grazing? I agree with you about the $9,000 figure.

I hope you got some decent moisture out of this latest storm system. From what you described, if it were me here's what I think I'd do for a "real quick" with a view to winter grazing: Right now I'd shred the sunflowers, etc. and hope for a good volunteer stand of the Johnson grass regrowth (maybe lightly disc it to stimulate the Johnson grass). If the Johnson grass came back thick enough I'd get it baled --- if not I'd let the cattle graze it while green assuming it was growing in conditions not real condusive to nitrate & prussic poison. If in doubt I'd have it tested. Cows really love Johnson grass and will graze it into oblivion -- it cannot take continuous grazing pressure like bahia or bermuda. Meanwhile you could be stockpiling some of your 66 + 80 acres of native forage for use later in the fall/winter.

If you really need the cool season forage from the 100 acres or have a viable plan for it : For late fall, winter and early spring you could try ryegrass, oats or winter wheat. Of course, so much depends on your moisture and soil fertility situation. A few years back a buddy of mine drilled about 400 acres of oats in a field near Madisonville (which isn't all that far south of Frost). He fertilized it and was fortunate to get timely rains. It grew so well that he didn't have enough calves to put on it so he took on others' calves on a pound gained basis. I'd guess that you'd get earlier grazing on oats & wheat than on ryegrass, but oats are more cold sensitive than ryegrass. If you were fortunate enough to grow too much oats you could always let it head out and then if conditions were right come early spring you could bale it (I've done that with good success) -- of course, you could also bale the ryegrass. And I'd guess there will be one or two guys around you that would be interested in buying hay or paying for grazing gain. ;-)

You say the 100 acres was hay ground and was previously plowed every year, so the prior owner was probably planting haygrazer or one of the related sorghum or millets each year, and maybe also planting a winter crop of oats, ryegrass or wheat. Later on down the road you can decide if you want to continue with something like that or possibly consider another route, such as really working up the land, killing out the undesirables and then planting sprigs or tops of Jiggs bermuda, $$Tifton 85, etc. for a permanent hay meadow or improved pasture, or going "native" if you so desire. That sort of permanent pasture would also lend itself to broadcasting ryegrass and/or drilling oats or wheat for cool season grazing.

Just a bunch of rambling thoughts -- others will probably have much better ideas. And of course take some soil samples and have them tested and for this very first season possibly fertilize accordingly for the cool season planting. Don't spend a lot of money growing more than your herd can realistically utilize, unless you have other plans for any excess forage. But how soon do you want to increase your herd size? Right now you've only got 15 cows for 80 + 66 acreas of grazing land in addition to the 100, so the 146 acres alone might hold you in good stead for stockpiling, assuming you're not down to just bare dirt due to the drought. Good luck.

 

[ENNOT]

Get somebody to mow the 100 ac, then turn the cows in on it. The only prolem is that the sunflowers may keep coming back.

Mowing it would be the cheapest way to start controlling the sunflowers. The only other thing to work fast would be to get it sprayed, but it will be expensive.

 

[msscamp]

Get somebody to mow the 100 ac, then turn the cows in on it. The only prolem is that the sunflowers may keep coming back.

What would be the point of that as cows don't eat sunflowers unless they are starved into it, which brings up an entirely different discussion. Yes, sunflowers tend to keep coming back until they are eradicated.

 

[Andrew]

Arnold,
Thank you very much for the reply. Its a lot of good information and I think I will go with the shredding of the sunflowers and discing the 100 ac to see if I can get something to grow in the meatime until it gets time to seed some cool season grazing.

The other 80 ac are another matter. 40 is in native pasture that's pretty much eaten up because I had the cows there since March until a week ago. The remaining 40 ac I have in Tifton-85 that was sprigged at the end of April. The USDA doesn't want me to graze it for a whole year so until April 2007. It growing very nicely but it was a lot more expensive than anticipated. The USDA man gave me a prepared plan with 2 year old prices which grossly differed from the actual prices.

I am fairly close to Corsicana on FM 22. Didn't get any of rain for about 3 weeks.

I really like the idea of trying to get some Johnson grass. I'm going to try that and see what happens. I just hope we get some rain soon.

Around my area there is mostly crops like cottom, sorghum and corn but not for Winter grazing. I haven't seen anyone for anything for Winter grazing. Just about everyone feeds hay. I want to stay away for hay. I did it the first year in the cattle business and that was the last (3 years ago).

Following you advice, I think I will get creative and divide the 100 ac up into 2 sections: one with Oats and one with Rye grass. I'm still learning so I really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[cowtrek]

Congrats on your new place! We're in the process of changing over 60 acres of cotton and sorghum cropland into pasture here on our family place and it can be a job, lemme tell ya. $$$$ too, which is why we're spreading it out over a longer time period.

Arnold gave you some real good advice. Don't bother spraying the weeds you have now-- too late in the season and I'm guessing if the sunflowers have outgrown johnsongrass you must have them 6 feet tall or better. You have to shred off that rubbish to get anything at all growing out there. Disking lightly if you can would probably help some too, to incorporate the trash a bit and encourage the j-grass rhizomes and seed. Putting the whole 100 acres into wintergrass might be more than you need, but $9,000 sounds way out of the ballpark to me. You could put in maybe 50 acres worth and divide it up into 2-3 grazing paddocks (or more) with temporary electric fence for wintergrazing, something like that. The main thing that I would add is some clover. That way you'd be getting some free N out of the deal, which should save you $$$ on fertilizer next year. I'd probably go with a cheaper annual type clover since you're probably going to work it up again to plant more permanent grasses before it's all said and done. Depending on your soil type and pH, you might go with crimson or white clover to start with and then when you have your permanent pasture established go with rose clover or something. You'd probably want a local recommendation from NRCS or extension on what clovers work well in your area.
You said NRCS doesn't want you to graze your T85 for a year, so I assume you're in a cost share program with them. I was in the process of doing that myself until I saw all the regulations and stuff, and just decided to do things on my own. I don't like people looking over my shoulder all the time and gov't regulations and requirements require big $$$ to do things their way, when there are cheaper ways to get by. One good thing, now that you have a T-85 field you have a good nursery plot to cut tops off of and plant the rest of your place, if you wanted to. Sounds like somebody might be getting to you on some things. Don't let anybody sell you a Cadillac for Cadillac $$$ when all you need is a Yugo. Worse yet, especially if you're kinda new to all this, don't let anybody sell you a Yugo at Cadillac prices! Most folks are honest but there are just enough out there that ain't that you really got to watch what's going on.

If you're really interested in going 'no hay' (which I don't think is completely feasible or practical) you might want to check out a program my Jim Gerrish called "Getting the hay out". You can find more information on it at http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.com which is the website for Stockman Grass Farmer magazine. I've been wanting to get an audio tape or CD on that for awhile but money's tight right now. Personally I still think that it will be necessary or at least prudent to have some hay to feed or at least available. That lush winter ryegrass, and even 'stockpiled' grass when it's all wet from rain and stuff, can sure give them the squirts easy during the winter. Hay gives the boost and roughage to minimize that. One of the main advantages we have raising cattle in this part of the country (unlike say my in-laws in Indiana and Kansas) is that we can graze MOST of the year and don't have to feed every bite to the cows. I've got 50 head (roughly) on my Shiner place and I only feed 3 5x6 rounds a week up there in normal conditions. If it's REAL cold (icy) or like last winter DRY I feed 4-6 per week. They graze the rest of the time and do fine.
Just kinda curious what you paid for hay and how much you fed that you 'never want to do that again' as you said. You said sprigging was a lot more $$$ than you anticipated, just out of curiosity what did that end up costing??
Well, good luck and congrats again! OL JR

 

[Andrew]

Thanks for the advice OL JR,
I paid $35 for the hay two years ago and was feeding one bail every other day to about 8 cows. My neighbor sold it to me and delivered it. The same one with the $9K proposal. He's a great guy and I respect him but the $9K spooked me.

Also, the hay was put out throughout the pasture and made spots that nothing grew on for months. I had to burn it to get anything to grow on it again. The hay was just Johnson grass with a lot of stem.

Last winter, I had around 16 cows and I just rotated them on 2 pastures: 40ac, 20ac and 20ac. They didn't do great but did ok. I also didn't feed any hay at all. One old cow died but that was the worst of it. I also sold 4 other cows that were just too old and skinny. However, the rest of the cows were nice and plump and all on stockpiled native grass. Additionally, I have about 15 ac in tall trees and creeks that grows really nice winter grass. I assume its wild oats or something similar.

I just bought some more cows that brought me up to 15 cows again.

Bottom line is I did very well last winter without grass-- in my opinion. My mistake two years ago was not rotating them and just leaving the whole place open. Last Winter I also wormed them with two of the Deworming blocks and that seemed to make a big difference. Grass didn't grow for the most part of the land but the stockpiled one was more efficiently utilized.


As far as the Tifton-85 I now have, its on 40 acres but the USDA is only paying me for 33ac. I'm out about $7K or so in everythig from soil preparation to springs, sprigging and weed spray etc... The USDA is paying some but I haven't received it yet so I don't know how that will go.

The grass looks nice and its like Hulk vs Woody Allen when you compare it with the Coastal bermuda side-by-side; at least in size. Although I think the Coastal spreads a lot faster and makes a better cover. This I see because I already had a little spot with Coastal before and it got polwed under and sprigged with the Tifton-85 and the Coastal came up much faster and more aggressive.

Another interesting point about the Tifton-85 is that its sweet. I've taken a piece and chewed it and its very sweet and juicy. The Coastal tastes like....well, grass.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[Herefordcross]

That's a pretty high loss/cull rate. Sure your worming program/health is ok. Just thought I would throw it out you will always have your bad ones but, that sounds like a pretty high percentage to me.

 

[cowtrek]

$35 a bale for stemmy (overmature?) johnsongrass hay sounds a little high to me, but then again if it's been dry and hay is scarce that might be pretty reasonable. The $9K figure sounds like somebody who likes to spend money. Sure he's a nice guy but there's a lot of nice guys with pockets deeper than mine! LOL I don't really think you need to feed that much hay. We hauled 3 rounds on a 16 foot lowboy to Shiner once every five days last winter, but it was DRY last winter and at the time I had nearly 100 head on the place all total. I usually feed 3 bales/week in a normal year. I always unroll them. It spreads the hay and any seed in it out evenly, so the cows eat it all, and they don't crap on it or make a huge dead spot of wasted hay a foot deep. I haul for a neighbor here and he uses feed rings which are a pain and he STILL ends up with wasted hay a foot deep rotting because it was peed and crapped on. My cattle usually eat the 3 bales off in about 4 days and then they can just graze on winter grass and whatever standing stuff is left over from the fall for 3 days til we haul again. Some folks say I might be underfeeding but they hold up pretty good and that's about the best you can hope for during the winter anyway. What really hurt us last year was the dry conditions that held back the winter grass, and being overstocked because we weren't finished with fencing/pens to split the herd and get half of em down here and take the pressure off. We were really kinda overstocked for awhile, but I held heifers back for awhile to build my numbers up to bring 'em down here, I sure didn't want to have to buy heifers or cows with these high prices! It's worked out really well and I can't complain. We're probably a little understocked in Shiner right now but the land needs a rest anyway. That native winter ryegrass is your best friend, that and burr clover. Just hope we get enough moisture to bring them in good this fall.

I was pretty enticed by the cost-share program with NRCS. They pay half of the sprigging, figured on a cost of $90 per acre, so you can get $45/acre in payment. If you do the work yourself, you can bill them just like you hired it all done and get paid for it. I looked at the water line and trough program too. They'll pay 50% of water line and troughs, but they require up to 1.25 inch lines depending on the run length and a double thick concrete trough surrounded by a 4' gravel pad contained within a 3 or 4 ft. concrete "sidewalk". Lotsa $$$ and trouble. I just laid my own water lines using 3/4 poly pipe laid through a booted subsoiler. Once I put a hose bib on the post and couple metal troughs they have water, and it didn't cost me $2K+. Signed up for crossfencing cost share and then he printed off 23 pages of "approved practices" and fencebuilding requirements and I said to heck with it. Just cheaper and easier to build it myself like I want it and not have to satisfy their 'inspections'. Then I found out that I couldn't do ANYTHING until my contract was approved (maybe 6 month wait) and it be eligible for cost share, have to pay for EVERYTHING up front myself to do it to their requirements and then submit receipts and invoices to them for cost share payouts probably 6 months after I bought and paid for the stuff to begin with. So I just canceled the whole thing. They have some good information on grasses and stuff that is really helpful, but the beauracracy for the program was more than this old country boy could stand.

I ran a moldboard plow over 20 acres that I'm planning to sprig in Jiggs. I flatbroke it back in May and disked it twice pulling a drag harrow behind to break the clods and finish the seedbed. Then it got weedy after the first little rain we got all summer and had to disk it again lightly to cut the weeds out, and now it's raining every other day and the cows rutted it so I guess I'll have to disk it again before I sprig. I found an old WL Pray one row sprigging machine near Hallettsville for $100 and restored it to like new condition so I can do my own sprigging. I have it on the 5610 waiting to go. I can sprig on 40 inch rows and pack the last pass with the tractor tire. One row will be kinda slow but should save a lot of $$$ compared to hiring it done. I can get Jiggs tops from a guy near Clute for $150 for a heaped up 16 foot lowboy load, bout 7 acres worth he said. I'm hoping to flash graze the weeds off after I get it sprigged if it's not too bad, should be mostly pigweed and johnsongrass and I've flash grazed it once already with good results. If it's too weedy or the jiggs can't compete I guess I'll have to buy some spray, but still cheaper than hiring it done. I just hate the idea of hiring a bunch of high dollar sprigging and then it's maybe 50-50 or so that it'll take. If you have a stand failure your sunk. I can poor boy it and probably have odds that good anyway. Good luck! OL JR