Loan or grow?

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ddd75":c88no8wz said:
well.. you can wait 8.. 10.. 15 years to build up your herd.. or if you are like me.. don't see that ever penciling out.. then just get the loan, go buy your cattle, and then make your payment. most cattle loans for brood cows are 7 years.

50k loan for around 25 hd. will run around 8850/yr. with 36 calves to take in you should be able to easily make your payment.

I'm sorta leaning this direction. I'm a math guy and when you figure time spent to go from 10 to 40 that would take several years and income loss, even with the interest repayment. I can see the other side too. I've had my cows for 2 years now and haven't had a single calf yet that I raised. Should have my first one this spring.
 
Jrebyank":3rabfts6 said:
ddd75":3rabfts6 said:
well.. you can wait 8.. 10.. 15 years to build up your herd.. or if you are like me.. don't see that ever penciling out.. then just get the loan, go buy your cattle, and then make your payment. most cattle loans for brood cows are 7 years.

50k loan for around 25 hd. will run around 8850/yr. with 36 calves to take in you should be able to easily make your payment.

I'm sorta leaning this direction. I'm a math guy and when you figure time spent to go from 10 to 40 that would take several years and income loss, even with the interest repayment. I can see the other side too. I've had my cows for 2 years now and haven't had a single calf yet that I raised. Should have my first one this spring.
Why haven't you had a calf in two years?
 
buying heavy bred cows will bring you some quick money for the first payment.

I do not recommend buying brood cows at the yard that are older. WHY? I tried that and bought over 70 head that way. I had around 65% calving. Eden shale (vet run / cattle association run) farm tried the same way to replicate how many producers buy their cattle. They got around 55% calving rate.

It almost ALWAYS pays to buy a proven program, from proven people.
=
 
ddd75":17xjdnk2 said:
buying heavy bred cows will bring you some quick money for the first payment.

I do not recommend buying brood cows at the yard that are older. WHY? I tried that and bought over 70 head that way. I had around 65% calving. Eden shale (vet run / cattle association run) farm tried the same way to replicate how many producers buy their cattle. They got around 55% calving rate.

It almost ALWAYS pays to buy a proven program, from proven people.
=

Preg checked, solid mouth or broken mouth, or just buying kill cows on speculation they were bred or had teeth?
 
Allenw":e8j2xk40 said:
ddd75":e8j2xk40 said:
buying heavy bred cows will bring you some quick money for the first payment.

I do not recommend buying brood cows at the yard that are older. WHY? I tried that and bought over 70 head that way. I had around 65% calving. Eden shale (vet run / cattle association run) farm tried the same way to replicate how many producers buy their cattle. They got around 55% calving rate.

It almost ALWAYS pays to buy a proven program, from proven people.
=

Preg checked, solid mouth or broken mouth, or just buying kill cows on speculation they were bred or had teeth?

preg checked cows.
 
ddd75":1vjt9d2d said:
Allenw":1vjt9d2d said:
ddd75":1vjt9d2d said:
buying heavy bred cows will bring you some quick money for the first payment.

I do not recommend buying brood cows at the yard that are older. WHY? I tried that and bought over 70 head that way. I had around 65% calving. Eden shale (vet run / cattle association run) farm tried the same way to replicate how many producers buy their cattle. They got around 55% calving rate.

It almost ALWAYS pays to buy a proven program, from proven people.
=

Preg checked, solid mouth or broken mouth, or just buying kill cows on speculation they were bred or had teeth?

preg checked cows.

I have bought 100's of bred cows from the sale. Lots of those cows were broken mouth old girls out of the high desert country. I can't remember ever having one that didn't calf. I always weaned over 90%. Don't buy bottom of the barrel old cows. Those real thin old cows aren't a good investment. Just sound middle of the road cows with some flesh on their bones. Don't get carried away buying too cheap or too expensive.
 
Brute 23":121iu6pd said:
Remember we are at record highs right now. If you choose to go the loan rout make sure you can pay it with $.8-.9 calves. We are due.

Seen many a fellow loose his shirt financing cattle. Besides a volatile market your getting in bed with Satan.
Your one day away from the worst drought and dumping cattle at rock bottom prices.
We dumped here in 2011 seen a many a cow trucked in Mo. in 2012 that went for pennies on the dollar.
 
Caustic Burno":ymggnzpv said:
Brute 23":ymggnzpv said:
Remember we are at record highs right now. If you choose to go the loan rout make sure you can pay it with $.8-.9 calves. We are due.

Seen many a fellow loose his shirt financing cattle. Besides a volatile market your getting in bed with Satan.
Your one day away from the worst drought and dumping cattle at rock bottom prices.
We dumped here in 2011 seen a many a cow trucked in Mo. in 2012 that went for pennies on the dollar.

I enjoy cattle but the money is not good enough to be stressing over paying a loan back.

I would take out a loan and invest it in the stock market before cattle. It has the same risk and WAY more reward.
 
Only borrow money if you're not independently wealthy. One year loans cash flow for me. 4 year cow loans scare me. With sell buy marketing I only have to worry about what cattle are worth today.
 
Dave":1njoo7x7 said:
ddd75":1njoo7x7 said:
Allenw":1njoo7x7 said:
Preg checked, solid mouth or broken mouth, or just buying kill cows on speculation they were bred or had teeth?

preg checked cows.

I have bought 100's of bred cows from the sale. Lots of those cows were broken mouth old girls out of the high desert country. I can't remember ever having one that didn't calf. I always weaned over 90%. Don't buy bottom of the barrel old cows. Those real thin old cows aren't a good investment. Just sound middle of the road cows with some flesh on their bones. Don't get carried away buying too cheap or too expensive.

I've bought a few bred cows, sometimes pairs, along from the sale and always got along all right with them. You have to use some judgement on what you buy and what you are going to feed them. I usually am trying to get rid of some hard to sell hay so I prefer a solid set of teeth, local experience will take precedence over any general advice.

The only time things were a little off involved a set of cows I believe were the sale barn owner's trader cows he had brought in.
 
Keep in mind that 90% of guys here are retired or have a job (myself included), won't have to borrow it all. Those that ranch for a living are either highly leveraged or inherited :2cents:
 
Brute 23":l5utlkyu said:
I honestly don't see how you can service a loan for the full amount on cattle. That 4 or 5% may be your profit in a good year and in a bad year it may put you in the red. Add in any kind off loss on calves or cows and you are done.

i don't see how you can have the equipment and land to handle cattle and not have cattle.
 
I chose a line of credit to start up. Nothing down, no collateral other than cows. If things get bad, I'll sell out, and if that aint enough, set it up as a regular loan. As it is, as bad as writing the interest check is every year, it's going pretty good. Just try to plan as best you can, you are charged interest on what you have drawn, but the remainder of the LOC is there if you see something you can't live without. I think this type of deal works best with someone who leans toward being a little tight. I put all checks straight back onto the principal of the LOC. This LOC is for cattle, and operating expenses. Equipment purchases, when there is one, I'll call them and tell them how much it is and go in and sign a note that's separate.
I bought running age cows, average age 5.5 years old approx., off Dad when he got out. These cows were doing it, and have baby sitted me for the most part when I started. I would highly recommend trying to find some through a dispersal of an owner you know. The flubs I've had, mostly, were of bred hfrs I've bought. Some worked out, some are long gone. Took my lumps, try to remember the lesson, and kept moving forward.
 
I'm not depending on this income at the moment. I don't care if I make a single dime for 4 or 5 years. Just looking to build my head to about 45-50 momas. I started with 5 open heifers 3 years ago and a bull. I've since picked up 5 more cows from local farmers. To date I have one of my home grown heifer that is due in March. One or two heifers a year grown and another 2 years for them to have calves just seems like 10 years or so to get to capacity.
 
Jrebyank":njngzja0 said:
I'm not depending on this income at the moment. I don't care if I make a single dime for 4 or 5 years. Just looking to build my head to about 45-50 momas. I started with 5 open heifers 3 years ago and a bull. I've since picked up 5 more cows from local farmers. To date I have one of my home grown heifer that is due in March. One or two heifers a year grown and another 2 years for them to have calves just seems like 10 years or so to get to capacity.

i guess if you weren't very good with cattle the slow grow approach would work. if you don't have all your money into feeds / minerals / special tubs, then you should be fine with a loan. I know I was.
 
ddd75":rtyknx9k said:
well.. you can wait 8.. 10.. 15 years to build up your herd.. or if you are like me.. don't see that ever penciling out.. then just get the loan, go buy your cattle, and then make your payment. most cattle loans for brood cows are 7 years.

50k loan for around 25 hd. will run around 8850/yr. with 36 calves to take in you should be able to easily make your payment.

I agree with this. I have bought close to 150 cows in the past 3 years after getting out of high school. Money has been pretty tight, but they are making their payment, paying their expenses, and giving me enough cash to get by. To me, that is a pretty good investment. About half of them will be completely paid off next spring, that will help tremendously. It has taken some very strict managment, and budgeting. last year I retained 40 of my best heifers to go on some new ground, so things are going to be tight this year. As long as things go half way smoothly, I have it penciled out where it should work out.
 
Jrebyank":1cni2zcu said:
I'm not depending on this income at the moment. I don't care if I make a single dime for 4 or 5 years. Just looking to build my head to about 45-50 momas. I started with 5 open heifers 3 years ago and a bull. I've since picked up 5 more cows from local farmers. To date I have one of my home grown heifer that is due in March. One or two heifers a year grown and another 2 years for them to have calves just seems like 10 years or so to get to capacity.

It won't be 10 years. Your up to 10 or 11 right now correct?

Need to make a plan to either put X amount in a bank account every month for cattle or cash flow the expenses and say when I sell calves I'm putting that money to buying more cows.

It will seem slow the first couple years, like any investment, but will gain momentum later on.

I think you are on the right track growing slowly. You will learn more and should have the opportunity to buy better quality animals 2, 3, 5 at a time.
 

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