Linebreeding

[BA]

Read "Battle of the Bull Runts" If the herefords (WHR) would have linebred and found the dwarfism, they would have stopped their problem before it nearly destroyed the breed. I believe the dwarfism was traced to breeding seven or eight generations back in the pedigree of the animals. If they would have been crossed with the dwarf carrier relatives within a couple generations, the huge problems could have been avoided.

I wonder if there isn't as much linebreeding today because the breeders are afraid that they have some trash in there and would rather have it and not know it instead of testing for it and culling it out of the herd?

 

[Brandonm2]

I wonder if there isn't as much linebreeding today because the breeders are afraid that they have some trash in there and would rather have it and not know it instead of testing for it and culling it out of the herd?

I think linebreeding is a hard sell today. Bull buyers (more or less) understand EPDs and they (typically) are looking for a bull in the top 40% (or better) of the breed in those traits the buyers deem important. The problem with linebreeding a modern sire is that TYPICALLY by the time a bull has been 'proven' (and I would define that as 85% accuracy and daughters who have been in production at least 8 years) there are 50 bulls in the AI catologs with better numbers and as time passes that numbers gap continues to grow. I remember when Scotch Cap was one of the hottest two or three bulls in the Angus breed. IF somebody had chosen to spend the last 15-20 years linebreeding Scotch Cap's progeny(while I would be eager to see what resulted) I doubt that (unless you had a very big herd) you would have identified enough high EPD outliers too keep up with the EPD inflation we have seen in the last 20 years. IF you have been around a LOOONNGG time, and have bull buyers who believe in you and your cattle, I think that you can still run a linebred program and make good money at it. The big problem with linebreeding is that it is very possible to pour your heart, mind, body, and soul into a cattle herd for thirty years and wind up with a group of cattle that aren't very marketable. I am not trying to discourage anybody here; but I think most breeders would make more money (and probably have better cattle) if they just stuck to multiplying the popular genetics of the day (within reason of course).

 

[grassfarmer]

I suppose it depends what your objective is - breeding better cattle or making money by "keeping up with EPD inflation". Personally I think commercial breeders will wise up to the con of EPDs that purebred breeders have used to market garbage to them. Talk about trash exposed by linebreeding - look at the trash in semen catalogs and sale rings created by the junk science of EPDs as it is commonly used.

 

[Badlands]

EPD aren't junk science, they work well enough that now we need to keep employing more nutritionists to feed the cows.

EPD work just fine.

The "junk" part comes from the purebred race, same as always.

Remember, the EPD creators don't breed cattle, therefore the misuse of EPD lies on the shoulders of purebred folks.

The argument about EPD being the cause of trouble is no more appropriate than saying guns kill people.

Sorry Mike, kinda bummed out on this one. Your cow carried some sort of genetic trash. Every calf of hers should be fed in the feedlot and eliminated from the gene pool. If I knew who she was, I would avoid her in a pedigree.

Badlands

 

[Gate Opener]

I asked an older fella one time what the difference between line-breeding and in-breeding was.

His answer: Its line-breeding when it works and in-breeding when it doesn't.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I asked an older fella one time what the difference between line-breeding and in-breeding was.

His answer: Its line-breeding when it works and in-breeding when it doesn't.

Reading through this thread, it is obvious that some folks don't even know what line-breeding is. Some keep describing in-breeding, and that's scary.

 

[BAGTIC]

MikeC

"No, I sold the bull (son) to a commercial breeder."

Let's see, you had a bull you suspected of genetic defects but instead of culling him with a knife or meatgrinder you pawned him off on someone else.

 

[BAGTIC]

...would you want to have childern with your siblings?

How about with first cousins?

 

[MikeC]

MikeC

"No, I sold the bull (son) to a commercial breeder."

Let's see, you had a bull you suspected of genetic defects but instead of culling him with a knife or meatgrinder you pawned him off on someone else.

That bull turned out to be a fine bull for what the buyer was using him on. The guy that bought him has been back many times since.

YOU are the one who suspected him to have genetic defects.

Not me. :roll:

I highly resent the statement that I "pawned him off".

I have probably one of the highest percentage culling systems of anyone you know and since you have no idea how my program operates, I'll just entertain your statements as pure ignorance.

 

[Aero]

MikeC

"No, I sold the bull (son) to a commercial breeder."

Let's see, you had a bull you suspected of genetic defects but instead of culling him with a knife or meatgrinder you pawned him off on someone else.

this was the common way of disposing of a carrier animal when the herefords had such a problem with dwarfism. if the guy never has any problems, it wont make a difference. i would at least tell him what happened before i sold him.

 

[MikeC]

MikeC

"No, I sold the bull (son) to a commercial breeder."

Let's see, you had a bull you suspected of genetic defects but instead of culling him with a knife or meatgrinder you pawned him off on someone else.

this was the common way of disposing of a carrier animal when the herefords had such a problem with dwarfism. if the guy never has any problems, it wont make a difference. i would at least tell him what happened before i sold him.

Let me assure you that I have never had any
"Dwarfism" or similar problems.

Just how many bulls have you bred to their own dams?

I spoke to my vet at length about my phenomenon and the cause and I explained the Linebreeding that had occured earlier in this cow..........

His answer was......"Linebreeding is different from Inbreeding. Inbreeding Depression can turn a whole herd into mongrels that look like her from a set of good cows. Dam to Son and Sire to Daughter is just too close to gamble with."

I'm paraphrasing the above statement but as close as I can remember.

I will continue my line breeding program but will watch my coefficients closely. Half sibs to half sibs is as close as I will get. I have no desire to lose any of the good genes I have.

 

[Badlands]

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 44445C434A

Didn't hurt her any.

Here's another that lasted for a while:

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4C425D4544

Full-sib?

Well, this one did fall ill and die last Fall, but she has sisters that are several years older than herself in production. I guess I can't fault her for living until age 12. While being flushed and rebred several times.

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4D435C4742

A little lower power full sib:

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4D4755424A

She's still doing fine, produced 37 embryos in 2 flushes.

And a Hereford for you:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 1&9=525C50

He was sold at age 8. He was 47% inbred. His dam who is over 35% inbred is still kicking. She produced 17 #1 embryos in one flush at 14 years of age.

These are just a few example I thought of off the top of my head.


Badlands

 

[MikeC]

Badlands, The question was how many have "YOU" bred to their own dams.

I would like to know also what was the inbreeding % or coefficient already in the bull that was bred to his dam.

And would you comfortably breed any of the bulls you posted back to his dam?

 

[Aero]

Let me assure you that I have never had any
"Dwarfism" or similar problems.

we are aware of that.

i was actually defending your actions. what mongrelized, multi-breed, rainbow commercial herd is going to have a problem with that bull? almost none.

as far as telling the guy goes, it's a personal thing. if you tell him about the inbreeding accident (strikes fear and confusion) and with the number of related animals in the comm herd being nearly zero, he wont have a problem, he would have no problem with the bull.

dont get all worked up, we are having a nice conversation. you had real evidence of the "inbreeding trainwreck" and i appreciate your experience.

Dave, you have to stop posting those temp links. what are the reg #'s? i will post a permanent one.

 

[MikeC]

Matt, You didn't answer my question........................

 

[Badlands]

Dang it, Matt, I thought I had it.


Does it matter who does it MikeC?



The Hereford is from my neighbor.

I have done it once. Had no problem evident.


Badlands

 

[MikeC]

Dang it, Matt, I thought I had it.


Does it matter who does it MikeC?



The Hereford is from my neighbor.

I have done it once. Had no problem evident.


Badlands

Yea, It matters to me. Most times when I engage someone in conversation about intense linebreeding/inbreeding I get the whole spill about what you can and cannot do and how wonderful it is. Even down to mating of full sibs, etc. and the advantages thereof. They have all seen this or that..........

But when the dust clears I finally find out they never have actually gone that far because the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, because of deleterious effects that can happen.

I noticed the Herf bull you put up. Was he a bigtime seller? 1,000's of progeny? Were there millions$ made off him?

 

[Badlands]

He was no big seller.

Sons of his went to local commercial men.

The owner has no big plans or dreams of taking over the industry.

He just made a living raising Herefords, like his dad, who was instrumental in the early years of the CSU research.

Most of the other animals, I have seen in person.

It's a case by case deal on whether linebreeding works, but the average says most folks shouldn't try it.

It won't work with stock that have too many problems, unless the inbreeding is slow at first so that too many of the genes don't stack up all at once.

I'm the last one to say it will work, as I am a skeptic. I find many of the inbred cattle to be poor at least, over-represented at best.

We are probably in the same boat on that deal.

However, genetic problems are genetic problems, regardless of the breeding system and if I find a problem in a cow of mine, I will not sell breeding stock from her unless they are test mated to see if they present problems. I suppose if I knew the producer and had good knowledge that the progeny were to be terminal in nature, then it would be no big deal. The problem comes with retaining stock from the founders. I suspect this may be why you are confident in your answers, and if that is the case, I can see where you are coming from.


Badlands

 

[beef]

One thing you have to keep in mind when pointing out successful sire/daughter, dam/son and full sib matings is that it is easy to point out a few successes and forget about or never hear about the failures. I have bred two sons to their dams and ended up with two below average weaning weight heifers that weren't much to look at. Nothing really wrong with them except that they were both the worst calves their dams ever produced. One lost her first calf and was culled for it and the other was fed out and slaughtered. The second one did a little better than average in the feedlot and qualified for CAB. She had a 28.66 IBC as calculated by the AAA pogram. I wish I had bred her to see how she would have done.

I have seen one of the cows Badlands mentioned and she doesn't look like much. I will say that she has produced some surprisingly nice calves. I have two 12 year old cows that are the result of mating half sibs and they are good cows. I also have a heifer that resulted from mating 3/4 sibs and she had a 106 weaning ratio. From this experience and from what I have read, I plan to breed no closer than 1/2 sibs in the future, but the 3/4 sib heifer may change my mind.

 

[Aero]

Matt, You didn't answer my question........................

sorry, just a short attention span.

i have done it just as many times as you have. (0)

i dont profess to be a linebreeder, but i might turn into one if i can learn enough about it. that's why i appreciate your detailed account of the crappy inbred calf. at the current time, i join my family in the production of popular genetics but every day i feel worse about it. i am looking for a better way and i think i have about stumbled into it.