Linebreeding

[BIZIN]

Wondering if anyone knows of any other breeders who have very strict linebreeding programs similar to Fort Keogh, or Holden Herefords, even like what I have read about the Irish Blacks in colorado? Interested in Galloways, Welsh Blacks, British Whites, good Simmentals, or Charolais?

 

[Dusty]

Eaton Charolais are a line bred Charolais firm tracing back to Predictor 9230

Hoodoo Charolais - have had a closed heard since the early 70's

Cobb Charolais.. line bred for years..

Sinclair Cattle Company... EXT, 707, well you know the rest...

To Many others to list..


I feel line breeding has a purpose when used right... In the charolais breed I feel you can line breed Mac 2244 and the Duke 261 bloodlines with Great Results..

High Selling bull this year was linebred ($170,000) in the charolais breed.

 

[skcatlman]

There is a reason for not line breeding it is called inbreeding depression. From what i have seem at operations who beleive in linebreeding is not good, yes you do get the occasional outstanding individual but you get way more duds. The comment i always refer back to is one from a animal sci. prof - the cost of prepotentcy is inbreeding depression.

 

[Aero]

There is a reason for not line breeding it is called inbreeding depression. From what i have seem at operations who beleive in linebreeding is not good, yes you do get the occasional outstanding individual but you get way more duds. The comment i always refer back to is one from a animal sci. prof - the cost of prepotentcy is inbreeding depression.

why do you care about a breeder having inbreeding depression?

as soon as you use any seedstock the linebred program produces you will see no depression and likely a better product than if you would have used the regular seedstock everybody else produces.

linebreeding in terminal animals costs you money.
linebreeding in parent stock improves your terminal animals.

 

[skcatlman]

That is a simple question to answer. Because some guy belives in incest his animals are poor and when a commercial bull buyer goes to his place he says what a bunch of crappy cattle and condems the breed. then it affects my bottom line. Inbreeding depression is the least of the worries inbreeding also increases the incedece of genetic and congenital defects. putting all that aside having full sibs mating is a bad thing, would you want to have childern with your siblings?

 

[Aero]

That is a simple question to answer. Because some guy belives in incest his animals are poor and when a commercial bull buyer goes to his place he says what a bunch of crappy cattle and condems the breed. then it affects my bottom line. Inbreeding depression is the least of the worries inbreeding also increases the incedece of genetic and congenital defects. putting all that aside having full sibs mating is a bad thing, would you want to have childern with your siblings?

i dont confuse societal human morals with improving cattle.

put the bull in with his full sister while she is in heat. do you think they will have an issue?

 

[skcatlman]

Not morality just science, the bull doesn't know he is a pha carrier and neither does his sister in heat how many times will they have to mate before producing a healthy calf. Line breeding happens in human society as well it doesn't matter, when you start linebreeding you get more genetic diseases showing up. It is true in any species.

 

[Brandonm2]

EXACTLY, if no one ever linebred we would NOT know about any new mutation that has produced a new lethal recessive. Hundreds, thousands of calves out there could be produced that are carriers and we wouldn't have the slightest idea, UNTIL those lines were accidentally crossed much further down the line, wheras a linebreeding program would have found it in two or three generations and the handful of carriers eliminated early on. It would be nice if there were some kind of mechanism where AI bulls were bred early on to their sisters for the purpose of looking for such unlikely but nasty surprises, rather than us getting 3,000+++ daughters well into production before noticing it.

 

[Julian]

Not morality just science, the bull doesn't know he is a pha carrier and neither does his sister in heat how many times will they have to mate before producing a healthy calf. Line breeding happens in human society as well it doesn't matter, when you start linebreeding you get more genetic diseases showing up. It is true in any species.

I think you are missing the boat here. Linebreeding exposes the genetic trash that is lurking in a genepool. It does not create disease. It exposes junk. Just eliminate the junk and work with what is not junk.

I suppose the plant breeders at the major seed companies would not agree with your opinion that you get more genetic diseases with linebreeding, as they use inbred lines to produce their hybrids. Why would they want to breed hybrids from parent stock that has genetic disease?

 

[grassfarmer]

skcatlman,
I think you need to be clear first on what you are calling linebreeding. Try reading "the basis of linebreeding" by Jim Lents as it gives an excellent account. Linebreeding by his definition is one animal never accounting for more than 50% of the blood in a son, daughter, grandson etc. The classic foundation mating of linebreeding is a half brother:half sister mating - and this can be done generation after generation thus purifying the bloodline of poor genes. Breeding a full brother full sister or a bull to it's dam is inbreeding not linebreeding. The problems mentioned are caused by inbreeding not linebreeding.

 

[BIZIN]

you guys are getting far from the question... i know the pro's and cons of line breeding... im looking for the cattle knowing the pros and cons... lets stay on track here now

 

[KMacGinley]

That is a simple question to answer. Because some guy belives in incest his animals are poor and when a commercial bull buyer goes to his place he says what a bunch of crappy cattle and condems the breed. then it affects my bottom line. Inbreeding depression is the least of the worries inbreeding also increases the incedece of genetic and congenital defects. putting all that aside having full sibs mating is a bad thing, would you want to have childern with your siblings?

Now this is an informed cattleman.

 

[SEC]

Inbreeding doesn't cause crap it eliminates it. Plant breeding proves that. I have had the opportunity to visit with Larry Leonhardt and he said at first there was some inbred depression but that soon corrected itself as well.

Linebreeding scares to many people and not enough thought and appreciation goes into it.

 

[Aero]

Inbreeding doesn't cause crap it eliminates it. Plant breeding proves that. I have had the opportunity to visit with Larry Leonhardt and he said at first there was some inbred depression but that soon corrected itself as well.

Linebreeding scares to many people and not enough thought and appreciation goes into it.

i just went to see Larry 2 weeks ago. well worth the trip. ;-)

 

[MikeC]

What could be expected by breeding a son to the dam?

The only time I've had that mistake happen was a complete trainwreck.

 

[Simmishowchick]

I have done that, bred a son to a dam, bred him to his grandma, aunt and even his 1/2 sister too. Three were some realy good calves. His one bull did a lot of winning and his heifers from them were good replacements. If you linebreed right, you can't mess up too bad, just have to be careful.

 

[Aero]

What could be expected by breeding a son to the dam?

you wil concentrate the genes of the dam. do it enough and your whole herd will be more like the dam.

 

[Aero]

What could be expected by breeding a son to the dam?

The only time I've had that mistake happen was a complete trainwreck.

details please.

 

[MikeC]

What could be expected by breeding a son to the dam?

The only time I've had that mistake happen was a complete trainwreck.

details please.

Was holding a cow (a very good cow, I might add) and her calf in a trap close to the barn for some reason (don't exactly remember why). Anyway, her son (from the year before) was in another trap next to her. One morning when I went to feed, her son was in the pen with her. I saw no signs of the cow cycling so I just got him out and made a note of it.

When the cow calved the following fall, she was early........ obviously bred to her son by my breeding date records.

The calf wasn't quite right, I could tell by looking at her from the git go. The older the calf got, the more pronounced her physical and mannerisms, such as - she had a very narrow nose and mouth, she always held her head down, abnormally long ears, she had a very curious trot when she moved, almost like a bouncing gait and was always thinner than the rest of the calves in the pasture. She little tiny feet and legs too.

One of my neighbors who helps me often referred to her as "retarded".

My helper - "Willie" referred to her as "Flicted" :lol:.

When the calf got about 6 months old and 400 lbs., much lighter than her contemporaries, I let her take a ride to the sale barn. She only brought about $60 because of her looks.


Have bred half sibs together before with just OK results, and coming back on those resulting progeny with a total outcross will give you an EXPLOSION of growth.

Line breeding has it's place, I guess, but breeding son to dam won't happen here again, if I can help it.

 

[Julian]

What could be expected by breeding a son to the dam?

The only time I've had that mistake happen was a complete trainwreck.

details please.

Was holding a cow (a very good cow, I might add) and her calf in a trap close to the barn for some reason (don't exactly remember why). Anyway, her son (the year before) was in another trap next to her. One morning when I went to feed, her son was in the pen with her. I saw no signs of the cow cycling so I just got him out and made a note of it.

When the cow calved the following fall, she was early........ obviously bred to her son by my breeding date records.

The calf wasn't quite right, I could tell by looking at her. The older the calf got, the more pronounced her physical and mannerisms, such as - she had a very narrow nose and mouth, she always held her head down, abnormally long ears, she had a very curious trot when she moved, almost like a bouncing gait and was always thinner than the rest of the calves in the pasture. She little tiny feet and legs too.

One of my neighbors who helps me often referred to her as "retarded".

My helper - "Willie" referred to her as "Flicted" :lol:.

When the calf got about 6 months old and 400 lbs., much lighter than her contemporaries, I let her take a ride to the sale barn. She only brought about $60 because of her looks.

I would never breed a son to his dam. If you had seen this calf you wouldn't either.

Mike,
All that means is that there are some non-desirable genes in that particular cow. Inbreeding just brought them to the surface. Did you keep her son as a breeding bull after that? He did contribute 1/2 of the "retarded" calf's genetics.